Nuclear Strike Obliterates Israel

[Gerald]

Israel is destroyed and it's remains are divied between the Islamic countries.

What would that DO to YOUR faith?


PS If you answer "it's not going to happen because I believe..." you are answering the question that I pose.

[RaceRunner]

You're right Gerald. If Israel were totally wiped off the face of the planet, etc, etc...then of course our faith would be moot.

Because if one word (jot or tittle) of the Bible is untrue then God is a liar.

However, since it is impossible for God to lie......That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast...(Heb 6:18-19 KJV)

And since God's Word is truth (Joh 17:17) it is not edifying to dream up situations that simply won't exist.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; (1Ti 1:4-6 KJV)

God has proven His word to be true time and time again. Like Abraham, we must simply, "Believe God".

[scooter]

Nothing

[Gerald]

You're right Gerald. If Israel were totally wiped off the face of the planet, etc, etc...then of course our faith would be moot.

Because if one word (jot or tittle) of the Bible is untrue then God is a liar.

However, since it is impossible for God to lie......That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast...(Heb 6:18-19 KJV)

And since God's Word is truth (Joh 17:17) it is not edifying to dream up situations that simply won't exist.

Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; (1Ti 1:4-6 KJV)

God has proven His word to be true time and time again. Like Abraham, we must simply, "Believe God".

I'm afraid I don't understand. You have given a scripture to say God does not lie, and have given a scripture to say that Gods word is truth, but have NOT given a scripture that the Existence of an Israeli state is necessary for Gods word to be true an NOT a lie.

[pastorables]

Israel is destroyed and it's remains are divided between the Islamic countries.

What would that DO to YOUR faith?

It is certainly possible that much of Israel will be destroyed and/or lands given to the seed of Ishmael with the express exception of Jerusalem and surrounding lands which is reserved for future purposes.

To assume that Israel will be completely annihilated and overcome before the reign of the Anti-Christ disregards scriptural evidence that there will be much activity in and around Jerusalem during the final 3.5 years. There will also be activity about 2 hours from Jerusalem in Megiddo when the beast gathers together for the war of Armageddon (Revelation 16:16).

REVELATION 11:2
But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

REVELATION 13:4-5
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Notice the harmony in these scriptures alone that for a specific period of time during the tribulation period, Jerusalem will be trodden down and persecuted by the beast (Anti-Christ). He will also make war with the saints of God during this time and overcome them as found in the following verse.

REVELATION 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[RaceRunner]

I'm afraid I don't understand. You have given a scripture to say God does not lie, and have given a scripture to say that Gods word is truth, but have NOT given a scripture that the Existence of an Israeli state is necessary for Gods word to be true an NOT a lie.

The question you posed is:

"[b]Subject: Nuclear Strike Obliterates Israel: Would such an event shake your faith?... Israel is destroyed and it's remains are divied between the Islamic countries. What would that DO to YOUR faith?"[/b]

Scripture reveals that Jerusalem & Israel will exist and will not be obliterated by nuclear strike before the Lord returns to set up His Kingdom for the 1000 year reign. (post rapture/marriage supper)

(We might imagine other scenarios, but God's Word still has the final say.)

Zec 14:1-5... KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (...continue reading to the end of the chapter)

So, since God's Word is true and by Faith we Believe God, then our faith should be solid, intact and unshaken...especially since we should be (if we are faithful to the end) among the saints that return with the Lord on that day. Our Faith does not create truth, our Faith is based on Truth.

[Gerald]

Both the quotations are contingent upon the ASSUMPTION that they refer to a future time 2000 years or further from the time of CHrist. The one in Zechariah has been fulfilled upteen times already.

This ASSUMPTION is NOT supported by scripture it is only supported by itself.


Lets try this another way.


Both of you Racerunner and PastorAbles say (I assume since he has chimed in on the it wont happen side) , If Israel is destroyed the Bible is false.

What of your Savior?

Is the blood of Christ and his sacrifice dependent upon a geopolitical nation!?

And you have answered "Yes It is" for without the geopolitical nation, the sacrifice and the Bible is not true.

DO you not find that exceptionally odd?

I find it mind numbingly disturbing.

[RaceRunner]

The one in Zechariah has been fulfilled upteen times already.

Really? Read the entire chapter? Even Israel is still looking forward to that day.

Zec 14:1-21 KJV Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. (2) For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (3) Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. (4) And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. (5) And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (6) And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: (7) But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. (8) And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. (9) And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. (10) All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. (11) And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited. (12) And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. (13) And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. (14) And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. (15) And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. (16) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (17) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. (18) And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (19) This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (20) In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar. (21) Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

What of your Savior? Is the blood of Christ and his sacrifice dependent upon a geopolitical nation!? And you have answered "Yes It is" for without the geopolitical nation, the sacrifice and the Bible is not true. DO you not find that exceptionally odd? I find it mind numbingly disturbing.

You can't separate Christ the Saviour from the Word of God.
Christ is the Word and was the Word made flesh.
God must fulfill ALL His Word.
If one jot or tittle of God's Word is false or unfulfilled, then Christ is false and God is a liar. (If I don't keep my word, then I am considered a liar.)

Joh 1:1-3,14 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made....(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Neither can we separate our Faith in Christ from the Word of God:
Rom 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If God chose to place geopolitical promises in His Word that is His business and why should I question His Word? My job is to be like Abraham and Believe God.

According to His Word (whether you choose to believe it or not is moot) Israel will exist up until the time the Lord returns for His millenial reign because He said so. Imagining other scenarios are simply vain babblings. (kind of like those WOF'ers you despise.

Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
(2Ti 2:14-16 KJV)

(2Ti 2:19,23-26 KJV)
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.....But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

[pastorables]

PastorAbles say (I assume since he has chimed in on the it wont happen side)

It is certainly possible that much of Israel will be destroyed and/or lands given to the seed of Ishmael

My friend, this is exactly why I hesitate to engage you in biblical discussion. You usually end up slanting the discussion to fit your own argument and/or personal conviction.

First of all, notice from my entry statement that I didn't disqualify the possibility of much of Israel being destroyed... I gave you that and yet you still misconstrue my attempt to have open honest dialogue with you.

Second, I used scriptures that clearly point to a future time in the grand scheme of eschatology. I only used a few, but there are several that rightly divide to support the importance of parts of Israel to the fulfillment of future prophecies. I stand by the biblical exegesis that Jerusalem and Megiddo have too large of an unfulfilled prophetical role to be completely annihilated at anytime before Armageddon.

Blessings,
pa

[Full Quiver]

Gerald, let's pose it this way.

For those that believe that the Jews will have a nation-state of their own called Israel before the coming of the Lord and that it's boundaries are determined by God and His Word then I ask......

1 Now after the death of Moses the servant of the LORD it came to pass, that the LORD spake unto Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' minister, saying,

2 Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, thou, and all this people, unto the land which I do give to them, [even] to the children of Israel.

3 Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses.

4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast. Joshua 1:1-4

A simple look at a map will show that the Euphrates starts in Turkey, runs through Syria, continues into Iraq, and joins up with the Tigris before dumping into the Persian Gulf.

When will Israel acquire these lands and borders? WHY does one NEVER hear a preacher mention these borders?

The USA, the UK, and the UN set up Israel which is great but Israel was not given it's Biblical borders so how do Zionists believe that 1948 borders were an act of God?


Gerald, it would not shake my faith at all.
I believe that Iraq will be nuked, probably by Iran or a terrorist group, or maybe even by Israel but that's a different thread.

[scooter]

I think the "Promise Land" transcends the physical in a way that it just doesn't matter to my faith what happens to the stone set one upon another in the physical Jerusalem.

My understanding of prophecy concerning Israel doesn't impact my faith.

[dolfan]

What if the entire earth were wiped out by nuclear strikes and earthquakes generated by them and a rush of famine and sickness before Jesus returns? What would THAT do to your faith? Let's not limit it to Israel.

What you are asking, reallly, is "what if Scripture isn't true"? At the very least, that's what you're asking people who believe in Israel-as-centerpiece-of-eschatological-history to answer in framing it the way you have.

The answer you really want to hear is either (a) "I believe that if Jerusalem/Israel is destroyed before Christ's return, then the Bible isn't true and my faith is shipwrecked" OR (b) "I believe that you are right, Gerald, and Israel really is not central to God's plan to wrap up the history of redemption in the earth through Jesus Christ."

You are eliminating the other answer as plausible -- the answer you're getting from RaceRunner, Pastor Ables, for example -- and since you've done so, any answer they give is (by necessity) evading your question. But, that's not a fair way to ask it.

The understanding they've expressed is well documented with a sufficiently long shelf life and with sufficient support from conservative scholars that, to simply brush it off this way is an evasion of its own.

And, I am not totally comfortable with any of the packaged explanations about these things. We've been over this before. Why not just ask it straight up?

If you are wrong about your view of Israel's role in the eschaton of God's plan on the Earth, do you think your faith would be shipwrecked by it, OR would you withstand the error and reorient your faith to the truth-in-fact of what Scripture actually has revealed by what God has confirmed through His actions? That seems to be the REAL question, isn't it?

For one, I'd hope I would back up, prayerfully study and let the Spirit lead me into all truth. I'm aware that God may do a zillion things differently than I understand the Bible to reveal that He is to do. There's a lot of "how" wrapped up in the "whats" of eschatology. Too often, we think we've got the whats nailed down when it is the hows that God is going to show Himself mighty through. Those hows may very well vaporize what we think we know about the whats.

[beckrl]

I come to the core thought that God promised the land of Israel to the Jews forever. Has God forsaken his promise? Or should we realize that God has keep his promise.

Isaiah 11 and Acts 2 and that promise land wasn't the land of Israel, but the heavenly, Hebrews 11 and that is the forever kingdom.


Now if Israel is destroyed would my faith remain? Yes for my faith isn't of this physical kingdom, but the heavenly one.

[TW]

If Israel were to be destroyed by a nuclear strike, or any other means, it would have zero effect on my faith. The reason being is that the current "Jewish" population of the "State of Israel" are not the legitimate heirs to the lands that God promised to the Children of Israel who crossed over Jordan with Joshua. Therefore, the current "State of Israel" is not the Israel alluded to in scripture.


TW

ps: I can prove my point should anyone wish to challenge it.

[paul]

No>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Not a debate but My Take.......


In Genesis 12, verses 1-3 present God’s three-part promise to Abraham. Here it is:
The Lord had said to Abram,
“Leave your country, your people and your father’s household, and go to THE LAND I will show you.
“I will make you into A GREAT NATION
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and ALL PEOPLES of the earth WILL BE BLESSED THROUGH YOU.”
The order of those covenant promises is an important key to Biblical order itself:
First is the promise of a LAND…then…
a SEED
followed by a BLESSING,
First…PROMISE #1: GENESIS 12:1...A LAND — real estate, a geographic inheritance that most Jewish people respect politically to this present day.
PROMISE #2: GENESIS 12:2...A SEED — a long line of descendants...especially interesting because at the time the Promise is given, ABRAHAM and SARAH are approaching old age and yet they have never had children.
The final PROMISE, Number 3: GENESIS 12:3...A BLESSING promised to Abraham personally and to his descendants. Furthermore, God promises that, through His blessing to ABRAHAM, all the families of the earth will be blessed…NOT JUST ABRAHAM’S descendants! Notice that wording! It’s important to an understanding of GRACE!

Now...to the basic outline of the promise...L-S-B-...for LAND, SEED, and BLESSING...we can also add these basic concepts...three additional ideas that describe the characteristics of that Abrahamic Promise...
First…that great promise was -- and is -- LITERAL in that the words mean exactly what they say. Gen 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Gen 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Also Duet 1-10


It is also ETERNAL, an unending arrangement, guaranteed by the maker of the contract, God Himself. 2Sa 7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
2Sa 7:14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
2Sa 7:15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.
And finally...
It is UNCONDITIONAL...indicating that no matter what Abraham or his descendants might do in the future, God would, in time…REPEAT: IN TIME…fulfill every element of His promises. Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.