Nuclear Strike Obliterates Israel

[Gerald]

My friend, this is exactly why I hesitate to engage you in biblical discussion. You usually end up slanting the discussion to fit your own argument and/or personal conviction.

First of all, notice from my entry statement that I didn't disqualify the possibility of much of Israel being destroyed... I gave you that and yet you still misconstrue my attempt to have open honest dialogue with you.

Second, I used scriptures that clearly point to a future time in the grand scheme of eschatology. I only used a few, but there are several that rightly divide to support the importance of parts of Israel to the fulfillment of future prophecies. I stand by the biblical exegesis that Jerusalem and Megiddo have too large of an unfulfilled prophetical role to be completely annihilated at anytime before Armageddon.

Blessings,
pa

My Apologies PAstor Ables, I did not intend offense and said upfront that I assume...

I am glad your faith does not hang on the continued existence of a Jewish state.

I wonder how you read FUTURE into the passages you mention when it NEVER says future but always and several times says SOON and AT HAND to the people 2000 years ago.

WHY....ASK YOURSELF WHY...do you not cling to those passages which mention "soon" and "at hand" with the SAME LEVEL of intesity?


The time words MENTIONED in scripture are JETTISONED to favor an interpretation that DEMANDS FUTURE (Time words in scripture must be ignored or discounted)

[pastorables]

My Apologies PAstor Ables, I did not intend offense and said upfront that I assume...


I wonder how you read FUTURE into the passages you mention when it NEVER says future but always and several times says SOON and AT HAND to the people 2000 years ago.

No offense taken.

Gerald, as you should know, it isn't always easy to rightly divide scripture on any given subject. We have to do our best to make sure that we do not offer private interpretation to the text, but study the scripture "precept upon precept, line upon line"...

We can't just take a scripture and assume it speaks of past, present, or future based upon any particular wording. We have to give it the litmus test of placing it "line upon line" with several other related scriptures to determine the various thoughts being conveyed within the verse/verses. Timeline is certainly one determination that we are challenged to make.

I just don't see the words nigh, near, soon, or at hand, being restricted to the immediate time of Christ. Timeline for any scripture has to be determined through a combination of historical and biblical studies.

Luke 21:28
And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Mark 13:29
So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

Was Jesus saying in these verses that final redemption was just a few days, weeks, months, years, or many years away? It becomes our challenge to study these statements "precept upon precept, line upon line" until we have peace that our understanding is based upon a multitude of counsel and not private interpretation.

[Gerald]

I just don't see the words nigh, near, soon, or at hand, being restricted to the immediate time of Christ. Timeline for any scripture has to be determined through a combination of historical and biblical studies.

Please answer this question: Since you have adopted a litmus test that totally rips any meaning from the words "soon" or "at hand" and they can not be taken literally, what word would the Biblical writers use if they wanted to say that something was "soon" or "At hand"???

[pastorables]

Please answer this question: Since you have adopted a litmus test that totally rips any meaning from the words "soon" or "at hand" and they can not be taken literally, what word would the Biblical writers use if they wanted to say that something was "soon" or "At hand"???

And I will ask you a question, "Do you honestly believe the Second Coming is a bygone event?" This seems to be what you are attempting to insinuate with your fixation on these words.

If you are asking me whether or not I believe everything in the Bible is to be read in a literal real time sense, the answer would be "no".

What about James 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

To attempt to answer your question, I believe they would use soon, at hand, nigh, and near just as we would. I just happen to also believe that these and other words/thoughts when used in a spiritual prophetical context possess an expanded significance.

It's kind of like "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day", etc... Now, I certainly don't understand those words in the context of our time clock and earthly knowledge, but I believe that in the expanded context of eternal things and God's parallel world that this is truth.

Or what about this one:

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Do we say only their salvation was nearer or could it be that our salvation is nearer as well? These are things that we have to consider and view in perspective of God's master plan.

[Gerald]

NO I do NOT believe the END TIME coming is a past event.

Neither do I believe that Jeus is LIMITED to coming JUST at that END TIME.

We talk about God showing up on Sunday morning all the time....how did he GET THERE if he did not COME????

I think that, rather that reading the coming of the Lord in scripture and ALWAYS saying "THAT MEANS THE END TIME COMING" we should look at and consider other alternatives.

FULL STUDY of the issue can never be achieved without doing so.

BUt I do not think you answered my question:

IF the Bible writer wanted to convey that something was really I mean it I'm not joking going to happen soon (as in really soon even At HAnd) and CAN NOT use "soon" or at "hand"....How would he have conveyed it?

[pastorables]

BUt I do not think you answered my question:

IF the Bible writer wanted to convey that something was really I mean it I'm not joking going to happen soon (as in really soon even At HAnd) and CAN NOT use "soon" or at "hand"....How would he have conveyed it?

I did answer.

To attempt to answer your question, I believe they would use soon, at hand, nigh, and near just as we would. I just happen to also believe that these and other words/thoughts when used in a spiritual prophetical context possess an expanded significance.

It's kind of like "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day", etc... Now, I certainly don't understand those words in the context of our time clock and earthly knowledge, but I believe that in the expanded context of eternal things and God's parallel world that this is truth.

[Gerald]

I did answer.

To attempt to answer your question, I believe they would use soon, at hand, nigh, and near just as we would. I just happen to also believe that these and other words/thoughts when used in a spiritual prophetical context possess an expanded significance.

It's kind of like "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day", etc... Now, I certainly don't understand those words in the context of our time clock and earthly knowledge, but I believe that in the expanded context of eternal things and God's parallel world that this is truth.

I missed it.

So you hold that WORDS have no meaning it you arrange enough scriptures in such a way that their meaning becomes different?

IN other words, You hold a construct of endtimes events that FORCE you to take those time words as meaningless.

Why can you not take the TIME WORDS and construct a system that makes the OTHER scriptures have a different meaning?

You have used the dispensational buzzword "Rightly dividing" but WHERE are the RULES for Rightly DIVIDING? Where do they come from? WHo made up those rules? And what forces me to follow them?

You have already thrown the rule of word meaning out (ie Soon can NOT mean SOON and "at hand" can NOT mean at hand) in order to support you belief, how differnt is that from other Christian beliefs that CHANGE words to justify their beliefs?

[pastorables]

So you hold that WORDS have no meaning it you arrange enough scriptures in such a way that their meaning becomes different?

No.

IN other words, You hold a construct of endtimes events that FORCE you to take those time words as meaningless.

No. I hold a construct of end-times that considers the spiritual truth that God and eternity dwell outside of our time/space continuum. We cannot study God's word in the preconceived vacuum of 2 + 2 = 4 or 3 p.m. is always 3 p.m. For with God time and space are much different. With God numbers don't always add up in our earthly way of thinking and the eternal clock can stand still, stop, or speed up at God's discretion without necessarily affecting earth time. God's usage of words as relating to time can and sometimes do fall into this category.

You have used the dispensational buzzword "Rightly dividing" but WHERE are the RULES for Rightly DIVIDING? Where do they come from? WHo made up those rules? And what forces me to follow them?

It's not a buzzword for me. I understand how it works based upon scripture. I have an excellent study on the subject if you would like a copy. It's based upon the scriptures found in:

Isaiah 28:9-10
9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

The precept upon precept, line upon line formula for "rightly dividing" scripture will work every time.

You have already thrown the rule of word meaning out

That's the point. With God our rules of word meaning and/or logical thinking do not always apply in the same way. We serve a God who parted a sea long enough for 2 million people to cross on dry land, commanded the sun to stand still, sustained the shoes of the children of Israel for 40 years, etc... I don't understand how the following can be, yet the Bible clearly proclaims it:

Psalms 90:4
For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

The one thing I do advocate is that regarding end-times when you study precept upon precept, line upon line, you begin to understand better the things that are to come as opposed to those that are past.

[pastorables]

Gerald,

Here is a good example using your words "at hand".

Joel 2:1-2
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

If you study the entire second chapter of Joel, one quickly begins to realize that this is prophesying of a future event. Joel even adds emphasis in verse 2 by stating that this kind of time has never happened before and will never happen again.

If you go further into precept upon precept, line upon line study of this chapter, you begin to see that it rightly divides with the coming day of the Lord spoken of in other scriptures throughout the Old and New Testament:

Joel 2:31-32
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Matthew 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Acts 2:19-21
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Revelation 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

From my limited understanding of scripture, all of these writers are referencing the same event --- the day of the Lord. It is no coincidence that the scriptures speak of deliverance and wrath within the same frame of time. The Lord's coming will be a time of deliverance for his people and a time of wrath and destruction for those who have rejected him.

I have just offered you precept upon precept, line upon line concerning just one thought from the Bible. The precepts must be able to lie upon one another and connect one another while reflecting the same truths.

[MacUser]

Israel is destroyed and it's remains are divied between the Islamic countries.

What would that DO to YOUR faith?

Absolutely nothing.


Btw.. hypothetically following this train of Nuclear thought. We must never forget about the second strike ability. Israel's nuke subs would then obliterate all the rest involved in a one by one fashion and no serious saber rattler would be left to claim it... much less divide it.

ACTIVE DUTY SUBMARINES ( known to exist )
Name (Number) Class Base Builder Laid down Launched Commissioned
Dolphin Dolphin Haifa HDW,TNSW 1994 1996 1999
Leviathan Dolphin Haifa HDW,TNSW 1995 1997 1999
Tekuma Dolphin Haifa HDW,TNSW 1996 1998 2000
Unknown Dolphin type U212 Haifa HDW 2006 N/A N/A
Unknown Dolphin type U212 Haifa HDW 2006 N/A N/A