Worship Songs II

[Full Quiver]

Sure it is BUT asking the Pharaoh to whom is he like? Is Pharaoh better than the Lord? The verses obviously aren't speaking just about trees but using trees as analogies to prove that the Lord is far better than the Pharaoh therefore "it" is a bad translation.

[dolfan]

Sure it is BUT asking the Pharaoh to whom is he like? Is Pharaoh better than the Lord? The verses obviously aren't speaking just about trees but using trees as analogies to prove that the Lord is far better than the Pharaoh therefore "it" is a bad translation.

Eze. 31 does not ask Pharoah if he is better than the Lord. God tells Ezekiel to tell Pharoah that he's goin' down. He taunts Pharoah with this comparison -- he tells Ezekiel to tell Pharoah that God made Assyria like a cedar tree that was so beautifully made by God that not even the trees in Eden could compare to its height, its breadth, its beauty. No other "tree" made by God could compare to the "tree" of Assyria -- and that by God's own design (v. 9).

As great as Pharoah thought of Egypt, Assyria was far greater. So, God then says, starting in v. 10, as great as Assyria was, I brought it down. And, if you think Assyria's fall was something, watch and see what's going to happen to you because you're goin' down, Egypt. (v. 18).

The garden of God in this analogy represents God's oversight of the kingdoms of men, His sovereignty. He can make high, He can bring down -- and does. Even the puffery of Assyria lead to its destruction.

In 609 BC, Egypt helped Assyria against Babylon. In 605, Babylon defeated Egypt and Assyria in the Battle of Carchemish. End of Assyria. Egypt knew full well what Ezekiel's words meant because it had been part and parcel of the battle that ended Assyria's dominance and destroyed it, really. It essentially decimated Egypt, too, so that by the time Ezekiel's prophecy was given as we see in Eze. 31, Egypt was a housefly compared to Assyria.
It was in this narrow period of time that Egypt's king is said to have never left Egypt again (2 Kgs 24:7).

Right after Carchemish, Nebuchadnezzar approached Jerusalem but did not take it. The king gave him hostages and spoil (including Daniel, a teenager). Nebuchadnezzar returned to Babylon immediately upon hearing of his father's death and did not take Judah then. In 598/597, he did take Judah and Jerusalem completely.

What God told the king of Egypt through Ezekiel would happen did happen.

[Gerald]

Okay.

Let us take that singing about someone elses subjective experience which we do NOT necessarily experience ourselves is acceptable as worship (I still don't see how, but that's me).

So we're singing along about this great subjective experience someone had somewhere in the past eons of time and set the experieince to music.

Suddenly, someone in the church begans to weep and cry, wait for it and they might scream or shout or speak in tounges.

They are having an experience that is native ONLY to their Spirit/mind/character.

So....we sing a song about a subjective experience until someone experiences a subjective experience.

Now the Pastor steps up and says "We've HAD church!!!!"

The gospel was not preached.
The Bible was not taught.
More than likely people will STILL go away hurting, confused and lonely.

THIS IS ABSURDITY TO THE EXTREME. I would say even Pythonesque in it's addledness.

[dolfan]

Okay.

Let us take that singing about someone elses subjective experience which we do NOT necessarily experience ourselves is acceptable as worship (I still don't see how, but that's me).

So we're singing along about this great subjective experience someone had somewhere in the past eons of time and set the experieince to music.

Suddenly, someone in the church begans to weep and cry, wait for it and they might scream or shout or speak in tounges.

They are having an experience that is native ONLY to their Spirit/mind/character.

So....we sing a song about a subjective experience until someone experiences a subjective experience.

Now the Pastor steps up and says "We've HAD church!!!!"

The gospel was not preached.
The Bible was not taught.
More than likely people will STILL go away hurting, confused and lonely.

THIS IS ABSURDITY TO THE EXTREME. I would say even Pythonesque in it's addledness.

I can't, wouldn't, shouldn't & won't disagree at all.

[Gerald]

I can't, wouldn't, shouldn't & won't disagree at all.

I am so elated that you agree with me I'm having a subjective experience right now!!!

[pastorables]

Okay.

Let us take that singing about someone elses subjective experience which we do NOT necessarily experience ourselves is acceptable as worship (I still don't see how, but that's me).

Well then, I suppose there's nothing new under the sun.

1 Samuel 21:11
But the servants of Achish said to him, "Isn't this David, the king of the land? Isn't he the one they sing about in their dances: "'Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands'?"

[Gerald]

Well then, I suppose there's nothing new under the sun.

1 Samuel 21:11
But the servants of Achish said to him, "Isn't this David, the king of the land? Isn't he the one they sing about in their dances: "'Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands'?"

How does this scripture pertain to the discussion at hand?

Are you ASSUMING that because they were snging about Davids exploits that they were singing about Davids exploits AS WORSHIP TO GOD?

WHERE does it say that they were singing of Davids exploits in their worship of God?

IF you are saying that they were worshiping GOD by singing about DAVID, is it then okay to belittle leaders in our worship of God as SAUL is belittled in this passage?

[pastorables]

How does this scripture pertain to the discussion at hand?

Are you ASSUMING that because they were snging about Davids exploits that they were singing about Davids exploits AS WORSHIP TO GOD?

WHERE does it say that they were singing of Davids exploits in their worship of God?

TIC gerald, TIC.

It was just a little humor, but I was using the humorous similarities to make a point about suggestive experience in songs, etc. Nothing about worshipping God here.

pa

[MacUser]

[WHY DO WE ONLY SING THE POSITIVE WONDERFUL "worship" passages?

WHY DO WE NOT SING THE ONES OF DESPAIR??? (A partial answer to that one is modern day Christianity has become more about POSITIVISM that it is about truth)

No its because of the covenant we are under - because He rejoiced over us first. Jerermiah 32:49-41 states in the coming everlasting covenant ( ours now ) ... "I will not turn away from following you to do you GOOD" - "YES, I will REJOICE over them ..TO DO THEM GOOD! We inherit via the covenant of Jesus only the promised Goodness of God. By Faith.

That my friend is 100% Truth! I'm extremely positive about that amazing love.

Even though David had an amazing understanding of the importance of worship.. meaning.. David brought to life the worship of God! Before him the temple of Moses was silent. Look into Davids temple that was setup so all could easily enter the presence of God via the arc. Jews and Gentles alike could access his temple because David knew He was good. This resulted in the song of the Lord or the song of David..

"Lord you are GOOD AND YOUR MERCIES ENDURE FOREVER".
Even years later... Era 3:10.. They worshipped God by the order of David.

But even above all of this.. my relationship is better than Davids! I have direct access to the Father and no longer a servant... But SON!

Absolutely 100% I AM STILL BETTER OFF THAN David. They only dreamed of the access that we now have thru Christ.

Why do I sing of positive goodness? Because of the amazing ETERNAL covenant and biblical truth. Don't suffer from covenant confusion, Jesus came so I could have abundant life!

( Sorry- typed on my iOS device, and replying to this specific question,)

[Gerald]

No its because of the covenant we are under - because He rejoiced over us first. Jerermiah 32:49-41 states in the coming everlasting covenant ( ours now ) ... "I will not turn away from following you to do you GOOD" - "YES, I will REJOICE over them ..TO DO THEM GOOD! We inherit via the covenant of Jesus only the promised Goodness of God. By Faith.

That my friend is 100% Truth! I'm extremely positive about that amazing love.

Even though David had an amazing understanding of the importance of worship.. meaning.. David brought to life the worship of God! Before him the temple of Moses was silent. Look into Davids temple that was setup so all could easily enter the presence of God via the arc. Jews and Gentles alike could access his temple because David knew He was good. This resulted in the song of the Lord or the song of David..

"Lord you are GOOD AND YOUR MERCIES ENDURE FOREVER".
Even years later... Era 3:10.. They worshipped God by the order of David.

But even above all of this.. my relationship is better than Davids! I have direct access to the Father and no longer a servant... But SON!

Absolutely 100% I AM STILL BETTER OFF THAN David. They only dreamed of the access that we now have thru Christ.

Why do I sing of positive goodness? Because of the amazing ETERNAL covenant and biblical truth. Don't suffer from covenant confusion, Jesus came so I could have abundant life!

( Sorry- typed on my iOS device, and replying to this specific question,)

So parse that out for me Mac.

How do you define that GOOD?

For instance if your wife begins cheating on you, you suffer a financial setback that ruins you finances irrepairably, your kids begin acting up in school and you begin to suffer tremors in your hands which make it impossible to do the things you love to do HOW would that work within the framework of ONLY GOOD you have outlined?

Or are you saying BECAUSE of that Good such things WILL NOT happen?

[dolfan]

It is easy to be glib about things and say, "Well, all things work together....". But, Scripture is either true or it is not. Job asked shall we have good things and not also suffer evil. The truth is that God is perfect when He leads us through the valley of the shadow of death. He also is perfect in having us walk through it. You know something of evil now after what you have suffered. Is God not still good? Yes, He is. None of us is any farther away from tragedy than a phone call, a knock on the door or simply standing there watching our lives walk out the door or die in a hospital bed. God is right to require it of us. He just is. If not, that is if we think He is not right, we have to submit to His logic at least to the extent of Isaiah 41 wherein He challenges Israel to make their case to Him as to why He is not right and just to judge them for idolatry. Bring forth your strong reasons, He says. Of course when you read through that bluff call, you see that God judges their audacity for doing so.

Even that which we think is good and right and holy and precious, He has the right to require it of us, to demand that we yield it to Him faster than we would drop a poisonous snake. Now, saying that is not only easy, it is meaningless. But when you are holding on to the wreckage of life's betrayals it is also true that God may require that we yield Him the fallout before we can have our eyes opened to the good thing He intends to form in us that conforms us to the image of Jesus.

[Gerald]

Dolfan I second and agree. I am reminded of the following:

2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


But I am also FULLY aware of how Christianity is preached today, which, boiled down to it amounts to "Come to Jesus and ALL Your Dreams Will Come True!"

[pastorables]

But I am also FULLY aware of how Christianity is preached today, which, boiled down to it amounts to "Come to Jesus and ALL Your Dreams Will Come True!"

"Come to JESUS and ALL Your Dreams Will Come True" is a true statement used in context. It's just that for some those dreams are realized in this life and the next, for others those dreams are only realized in the next life. Though we often lack understanding in these matters, we can't say that God is unfair. He is sovereign.

Notice the results for Job after his sufferings:

Job 42:12
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Notice the promises for all Christians who suffer:

Luke 6:20-23
20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven:

[Gerald]

"Come to JESUS and ALL Your Dreams Will Come True" is a true statement used in context. It's just that for some those dreams are realized in this life and the next, for others those dreams are only realized in the next life. Though we often lack understanding in these matters, we can't say that God is unfair. He is sovereign.

Notice the results for Job after his sufferings:

Job 42:12
12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.

Notice the promises for all Christians who suffer:

Luke 6:20-23
20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven:

PastorAbles, the if you will reread my post you will see that your point is underscored with the idea of reward in heaven. In fact that was the whole point of the quote I used.

My final statement (How it is preached today) was intended to convey that the heavenly reward is de-emphasized and the HERE AND NOW is super-emphasized (One needs only watch ONE Joel Osteen Routine to see that this is so).

Yes, if one "dreams of heaven' before coming to Christ, those dreams will be realized.



SCripture is cherry picked for people blessed by God and those scriptures which convey the hard life of CHristians are ignored.

As is evidenced by YOUR choice of Job being rewarded in this life, and your ignoring of Stephens life where he served Christ and was stoned to death, or James who was thrown from the temple heights.

This is evidenced by the preaching I hear of the faith chapter of Hebrews. ALL the wonderous lives are ALWAYS PROCLAIMED, bu the suffering lives are NEVER or RARELY mentioned.

BOTH were men of faith.

I wonder, if given the chance, Early Christians would have chosen to listen to "YOur Best LIfe Now" sermons on their Mp3 players while they were fed to lions????

[pastorables]

SCripture is cherry picked for people blessed by God and those scriptures which convey the hard life of CHristians are ignored.

As is evidenced by YOUR choice of Job being rewarded in this life, and your ignoring of Stephens life where he served Christ and was stoned to death, or James who was thrown from the temple heights.

Reread the post. I didn't cherry pick. I used one example for each point I was making. I used one example for being blessed in this life and one example for suffering now and being blessed in the next life.

The fact that I used the example in Luke to represent a larger group of persecuted Christians rather than a specific verse about Stephen or James isn't cherry picking. I could have used either/or.

My point remains the same and I think you did agree even though you added the unnecessary partisan disclaimer.

On another note, do you believe it's always wrong to cherry pick verses? What about when we need scriptures for joy? scriptures for peace? scriptures for faith? scriptures for patience? other specific scriptures?

pa