At a recent Elephant Room Conference Mark Driscoll questioned T D Jakes on basic Christian Doctrine.
JAkes agreed on the Trinity and the exclusivity of salvation of Christ,
Dr James White of Alpha And Omega Ministries examines this topic and you can hear Jakes affirm the doctrines:
http://www.aomin.org/podcasts/20120127.mp3
The question White puts forward is Does the statement "Yes I agree" carry more weight than the language and statements issued while preaching. Dr White gives examines several T D Jakes Messages in which Jakes preaches God in oneness terminology.
Essentially, T D Jakes affirms the Trinity as long as he can define the Trinity in Oneness terms.
The same can be said of his affirmation of the Exclusivity of Christ.
Jakes has said that Islamists could be the "other sheep" Christ mentioned and that statement can be found here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22xL2E10JJE
So which is it?
Does a simple affirmation allay all problems and so we ignore contradictory information when he speaks elsewhere?
(I know I'm asking a lot from Pentecostals who just look at his preaching style and whether it excites you or not).
Mark Driscoll Questions TD Jakes On Trinity
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Mark Driscoll Questions TD Jakes On Trinity
Last edited by Gerald on February 3rd, 2012, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not sure if that was an affirmation of trinitarianism or not. I will say it seems like it may be, but clarification is needed because of the way Driscoll ran the questions together right there.
That said, I think this guy you linked to is making way too much about these distinctions. Yes the gospel among oneness is sufficient enough to bring genuine salvation. If they believe on Christ they are saved, and are fellow believers and members of the body of Christ. Is the view errant? Yes. Is it damnable? No.
In fact, it is the oneness who have primarily made this a divisive issue among modern believers. Sure, in reaction, some trinitarians have retorted in kind. Thankfully though believers on both sides are beginning to see this need not be as divisive as it has been, and that we can accept one another as fellow believers despite our differences in understanding concerning the nature of God's unity and persons.
That said, I think this guy you linked to is making way too much about these distinctions. Yes the gospel among oneness is sufficient enough to bring genuine salvation. If they believe on Christ they are saved, and are fellow believers and members of the body of Christ. Is the view errant? Yes. Is it damnable? No.
In fact, it is the oneness who have primarily made this a divisive issue among modern believers. Sure, in reaction, some trinitarians have retorted in kind. Thankfully though believers on both sides are beginning to see this need not be as divisive as it has been, and that we can accept one another as fellow believers despite our differences in understanding concerning the nature of God's unity and persons.
Last edited by Poimen on February 3rd, 2012, 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Poimen
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
Bro. Christopher
"I wish a buck was still silver, it was back when the country was strong." -- The Hag
Poimen wrote:..If they believe on Christ they are saved,
Bravo. Well said and balanced.
This is one of my favorite stories about the simplistic gospel message. Paul and Silas were thrown into jail even when they could have possibly avoided all of this by claiming to be Romans. Jail was apparently the destination not the result.
Because even after the doors were opened for them. They remained!! Whew.. and here is Paul and Silas response to their jailers passionate question.
Acts 16:30-33 (KJV)
30And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
I can only visualize the look on his face. Wow... that was simple! You mean? You sure? Is it possible? TELL ME MORE ABOUT HIM! Paul and Silas knew the same God that directed all these events to save him will be the same God that continues to transform his life by faith.
I wonder how many "Judaizers" would walked off? Get all dusted up? It's like some are angry that somebody might accidentally get saved? "Your wrong.. It's not that simple, it's not that easy!" some would have said. We need to check our disgust against the simple Gospel and ask the Holy Spirit for Truth. Start showing some LOVE and mind of Christ.
If I'm off topic, I stand corrected ( slapped the wrist ). But that was just necessary.
Poimen: Yes the guy I linked to is inflexable. THE MAJOR REASON I linked to him is because it was the only audio source I had for the questioning by Driscoll (Although he does have a few examples of Jakes Oneness preaching). If you listen to the complete show he Plays the segment where Mark Driscol zeros in on the definition of the Trinity as three persons eternally distinct and Jakes Hems and HAws and throws out a Oneness definition of the trinity.
Which Underscores my point: Jakes believes the trinity as long as he can define it with heretecal ONENESS terms.
MacUser:
To what extent is the definition of CHrist elastic?
A ONEness Christ is a joker and deceiver.
A Mormon Christ is a brother of Lucifer.
A Creflo Dollar Christ isnt even God.
So where do YOU draw the line?
Isnt it enough to be aware that the scriptures constatly warn of False Christs??
Does it not matter how Christ is defined at all just as long as you believe in something called Christ??????????????
Which Underscores my point: Jakes believes the trinity as long as he can define it with heretecal ONENESS terms.
MacUser:
To what extent is the definition of CHrist elastic?
A ONEness Christ is a joker and deceiver.
A Mormon Christ is a brother of Lucifer.
A Creflo Dollar Christ isnt even God.
So where do YOU draw the line?
Isnt it enough to be aware that the scriptures constatly warn of False Christs??
Does it not matter how Christ is defined at all just as long as you believe in something called Christ??????????????
Voddie BAucham refuses paritcipation in the Elephant Room COnference BECAUSE of Jakes.
He lists the following reasons:
1.T.D. Jakes has a history of holding to, teaching, and associating with modalism, and ER2 was a forum wherein he would be assumed to be a “brother”.
2.The “Word of Faith” gospel he preaches is heterodox and harmful.
3.Jakes’s influence in the Dallas Metroplex has been negative, at best.
4.Bishop Jakes is an example of the worst the black church has to offer.
A more in depth explanaton at:
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/voddi ... m-2012-01/
He lists the following reasons:
1.T.D. Jakes has a history of holding to, teaching, and associating with modalism, and ER2 was a forum wherein he would be assumed to be a “brother”.
2.The “Word of Faith” gospel he preaches is heterodox and harmful.
3.Jakes’s influence in the Dallas Metroplex has been negative, at best.
4.Bishop Jakes is an example of the worst the black church has to offer.
A more in depth explanaton at:
http://www.gracefamilybaptist.net/voddi ... m-2012-01/
Interesting.
Reports are that at least one church has left the Acts 29 network (Driscolls Church planting network) because of the appearance of T D JAkes at the COnference.
Glad to see someone has some backbone.
More on the Acts 29 Network:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_29_Network
Reports are that at least one church has left the Acts 29 network (Driscolls Church planting network) because of the appearance of T D JAkes at the COnference.
Glad to see someone has some backbone.
More on the Acts 29 Network:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acts_29_Network
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Sometimes, boldness is not bold at all. not disagreeing with those who stood about Jakes, but seems like a lot of rashness of action in the aftermath of this tempest in a teapot....on every side.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
Gerald wrote:
MacUser:
To what extent is the definition of CHrist elastic?
A ONEness Christ is a joker and deceiver.
A Mormon Christ is a brother of Lucifer.
A Creflo Dollar Christ isnt even God.
So where do YOU draw the line?
Isnt it enough to be aware that the scriptures constatly warn of False Christs??
Does it not matter how Christ is defined at all just as long as you believe in something called Christ??????????????
LOL... no I say you brow beat them into submission. Impugn, Name Call, laugh and try to DIVIDE further. Call them out for a public flogging. Be sure to clearly define by ridicule and publically put on display to the WORLD.. that "YOUR CHRIST" is better. Your CHRIST is not the same individual and is going to be a day of payback.. right?! WRONG!! Brother... It's called Spiritually discerning with the MIND OF CHRIST!!!
Mark 9:38-42 (KJV)
38. And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40. For he that is not against us is on our part.
41. For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42. And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
and I love how the message defines it. A little clearer...
Mark 9:38-42 ( the message )
38 John spoke up, "Teacher, we saw a man using your name to expel demons and we stopped him because he wasn't in our group."
39-41 Jesus wasn't pleased. "Don't stop him. No one can use my name to do something good and powerful, and in the next breath cut me down. If he's not an enemy, he's an ally. Why, anyone by just giving you a cup of water in my name is on our side. Count on it that God will notice.
42 "On the other hand, if you give one of these simple, childlike believers a hard time, bullying or taking advantage of their simple trust, you'll soon wish you hadn't. You'd be better off dropped in the middle of the lake with a millstone around your neck.
I didn't say this!! So we must constantly CHECK our attitudes and understand what Jesus Christ is saying here. Especially when "we" are "self anointed" determining RIGHT AND WRONG. Paul says you that are SPIRITUAL ( he didn't say those that are OLDER, WISER, MORE SCHOOLED, SMARTER, "CORRECT" THEOLOGY, ABLE TO WIN A VERBAL ARGUMENTS - but Spiritual restore them GENTLY.. with great balance and consideration of ALL THINGS. If not, you will fall into verse 42.
Simply... It's a HEART thing and not a HEAD Thing. Love and show, not condemn and impugn.
Are we not glad that GOD ONLY knows and purifies the heart and gives His spirit as He sees fit. Not by perfect doctrine or theology.. but By SIMPLE faith in what God has done.
Whooo Hoooo! I get excited about that! Go LOVE someone today. Love NEVER fails.
Macuser, that is simple pollyanna reading of scripture and is a perspective that is NOT supported by the WHOLE of scripture.
Did not Jesus HImself call the Jews the Children of Satan, A brood of vipers?
Didnt even Paul say to those who preached wrongly that he wished they'd go cut their penis off?
Why yes. Yes they BOTH did.
Paul even publicly warned against preachers because they simply preached the ressurrection had already happened.
And IN Acts 20 you see the following:
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
HOW DARE HE! How dare he insult them calling their teaching perverse. HOW DARE he insult them? He should of just loved them with the mind of Christ!
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Did not Jesus HImself call the Jews the Children of Satan, A brood of vipers?
Didnt even Paul say to those who preached wrongly that he wished they'd go cut their penis off?
Why yes. Yes they BOTH did.
Paul even publicly warned against preachers because they simply preached the ressurrection had already happened.
And IN Acts 20 you see the following:
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
HOW DARE HE! How dare he insult them calling their teaching perverse. HOW DARE he insult them? He should of just loved them with the mind of Christ!
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Gerald wrote:Macuser, that is simple pollyanna reading of scripture and is a perspective that is NOT supported by the WHOLE of scripture.
haha.. then I will fully ERROR on the side of LOVE each and every day. It's not about being RIGHT or WRONG.. it's about Spiritually discerning GOOD vs EVIL my friend. If you don't know whom your Father IS ( 1 John 4:8 ) and what covenant you are under with Him. You can get this stinking judgmental thinking. This is foundational above all we discuss.
Paul States in 1 Corinthians 13:1
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am become sounding brass, or a clanging cymbal.
You can be burned at this stake for your beliefs... but no love. You're a ZERO. NEVER JUSTIFIED with vitriol. If your definition of pollyanna is mercy, love, & forgiveness etc as Paul so wonderfully expounds on in ( Go READ It again ). I fully embrace it to the best of ability to date. Whooo Hooo! Paul is key to point out it all about Love and NOTHING TRUMPS IT. Period. You tread carefully as in Mark 9:42. It's all about how you do it.
And... Jesus uses this POWERFUL illustrative parable of the Kingdom to demonstrate exactly what he means.
******
The Parable of the Weeds
Mathew 13
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
*******
Wow.. Powerful.
Does Jesus sound worried in this situation?
Is HIS Seed doctrine in a tizzy because of a sneaky enemy?
Does he destroy the Good Seed because Evil Seed is in the field as well correct it all and "restart over"?
Is He afraid that a weed will convert wheat?
No.
He's fully confident in HIS Seed to grow and the ONLY WARNING in this parable is not to pull the weeds like his servants mistakingly ASKED... because it's woven so close they might destroy the GOOD with the EVIL. Jesus is clearly confident they can grow together and are easily distinguished from each other. One will grow into His DNA and the other into His and can easily be separated in the end.
Do we correct? Yes JUST like your Father does you. In Love.
Love Never Fails.
Macuser,
Then when Paul said he wished people would go cut their penis off, he FAILED at love?
WHen John Wrote NOT to have anything to do with people who preached different, he FAILED at love?
When the Jews resisted Christ Messiahship and he called them the Children of Satan, he FAILED at love?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to hold a standard of love higher than these examples had for those whom they were over
Back to the Topic. T D Jakes is a Oneness Heretic and a Word Of Faith shyster supreme; and we have leaders senseless enough to idolize him. Only in Pentecostalism do we sit down at the Pigs trough, pretend we are at a banquet, and coo in awe at the head sow.
.
Then when Paul said he wished people would go cut their penis off, he FAILED at love?
WHen John Wrote NOT to have anything to do with people who preached different, he FAILED at love?
When the Jews resisted Christ Messiahship and he called them the Children of Satan, he FAILED at love?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to hold a standard of love higher than these examples had for those whom they were over
Back to the Topic. T D Jakes is a Oneness Heretic and a Word Of Faith shyster supreme; and we have leaders senseless enough to idolize him. Only in Pentecostalism do we sit down at the Pigs trough, pretend we are at a banquet, and coo in awe at the head sow.
.
Oohhhh...
MOTIVATION is the key point here in EVERTYHING! Nothing TRUMPS that PERIOD. Zealousness to impugn, reject, condemn, isolate, uproot and ridicule - simply will not fit behind Love as illustrated numerous times. A TWO Year old can tell you that! I'm simply reflecting basic New Covenant principles here. These are not my words.
Please be careful in hanging rejection, vitriol, self righteous indignation on snippet buzz phrases these men used in unique circumstances ( while ignoring ENTIRE CHAPTERS they wrote in clear text and full meaning ) and then feel commissioned to utilize these snippets as giving rights to act ABOVE LOVE ( if it breaks with the scriptures below ).
How? Simply CHECK your motivation here. You self analyze your heart and your motives for this. Only the individual can do this.
Love Never Fails. ( felt like completing the entire chapter here from my original post above! )
*****
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
******
If it is a sincere desire for truth then do it in full truth and love.
I will do my best to ERROR on the side of Love.
God Bless you my friend.
MOTIVATION is the key point here in EVERTYHING! Nothing TRUMPS that PERIOD. Zealousness to impugn, reject, condemn, isolate, uproot and ridicule - simply will not fit behind Love as illustrated numerous times. A TWO Year old can tell you that! I'm simply reflecting basic New Covenant principles here. These are not my words.
Please be careful in hanging rejection, vitriol, self righteous indignation on snippet buzz phrases these men used in unique circumstances ( while ignoring ENTIRE CHAPTERS they wrote in clear text and full meaning ) and then feel commissioned to utilize these snippets as giving rights to act ABOVE LOVE ( if it breaks with the scriptures below ).
How? Simply CHECK your motivation here. You self analyze your heart and your motives for this. Only the individual can do this.
Love Never Fails. ( felt like completing the entire chapter here from my original post above! )
*****
2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
******
If it is a sincere desire for truth then do it in full truth and love.
I will do my best to ERROR on the side of Love.
God Bless you my friend.
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