Two things sadden me beyond words...

[Phil Hoover]

First, the division I see in many congregations/denominations. The younger set (folks 30 and under) now believe they are the only ones who "really know how to worship." If the style of dress, or the MUSICAL part of the gatherings didn't come off the press this morning (or at the latest yesterday afternoon)...then it's not good enough for them...it's too old.

This kind of narcissism is dangerous, and idolatrous. Everyone stands on the shoulders of those who have gone before them...even those who haven't passed on to Heaven yet. The OLDER saints are to be respected, almost revered--in my opinion. These precious people have wisdom and clarity and grace (or at least they should) that will greatly benefit the "new generation" of folks in every local church, and in every denomination.

Second, the older saints need to do everything possible to "bridge the generational gaps" and to prepare the "younger saints" NOW...not later. Trust the "younger ones" the LORD HIMSELF is bringing to the local church, the denomination. Mentor them, encourage them, GET TO KNOW THEM...and allow them to get to know you...the younger set NEEDS the wisdom that is to be imparted from the "seasoned saints."

Everyone stands on the shoulders of those who go before them. NO ONE is to be ignored, or even worse, discarded.

[Pastor Gary]

First, the division I see in many congregations/denominations. The younger set (folks 30 and under) now believe they are the only ones who "really know how to worship." If the style of dress, or the MUSICAL part of the gatherings didn't come off the press this morning (or at the latest yesterday afternoon)...then it's not good enough for them...it's too old.

This kind of narcissism is dangerous, and idolatrous. Everyone stands on the shoulders of those who have gone before them...even those who haven't passed on to Heaven yet. The OLDER saints are to be respected, almost revered--in my opinion. These precious people have wisdom and clarity and grace (or at least they should) that will greatly benefit the "new generation" of folks in every local church, and in every denomination.

Second, the older saints need to do everything possible to "bridge the generational gaps" and to prepare the "younger saints" NOW...not later. Trust the "younger ones" the LORD HIMSELF is bringing to the local church, the denomination. Mentor them, encourage them, GET TO KNOW THEM...and allow them to get to know you...the younger set NEEDS the wisdom that is to be imparted from the "seasoned saints."

Everyone stands on the shoulders of those who go before them. NO ONE is to be ignored, or even worse, discarded.

This demands a response:
First, I don't think (at all) the "younger set (folks 30 and under) now believe they are the only ones who "really know how to worship."" — I think they know that you can't drive the car forward looking in the rear view mirror. The cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night are in constant motion, and any person or congregation who prefers to camp out instead of move out will find themselves left alone in the desert.

I lead a multi-generational church. My oldest members, around 80-ish, stand with hands raised beside pre-teens, hands raised and tears flowing as they passionately worship with Jesus Culture, Chris Tomlin, Highlands Worship, and songs that were written last month instead of last century. They are mature saints, who know that styles DO changes, and they so want to reach the next generations and secure the future of their church that they — being the mature ones — lay aside their petty preferences in favor of supporting and welcoming new people, with new tastes, who bring new vitality to the church!

[dolfan]

I am probably a little curmudgeon on this topic but I don't want to be. I tire of the 7-11 songs (7 words sang 11 times over). They seem vacant to me when compared to the rich language of the hymns. The hymns actually teach us so much, and I really can't think of any contemporary worship songs that do.

Having said that, I really like the music now as opposed to the old hymn tunes. My ear is modern even if my content desire hearkens back to before my own time. So, if there was a concerted effort, like Jars of Clay did with their CD of hymns, to rearrange the music of old hymns but remain faithful to their language --- boy that'd be great.

Until then, I just keep telling myself "this is not about me", and I sing what I sing and on some things I just pray without singing. I don't want to be "that guy" that complains, so I don't. I can go for a half hour or so through just about any kind of music, even if I don't really enjoy it.

[PastorP]

I heard it said, some sing on the wall, some off the wall and some not at all! Regardless, if the worship in your local church is hymns, blended or just choruses. Use it as a time to worship a holy, merciful and loving God! Don't allow the most beautiful time of any church service bring division in the church or in your life.

[Pastor Gary]

The hymns actually teach us so much, and I really can't think of any contemporary worship songs that do.

What on earth are you people singing???

Here's a Hillsong we did THIS MORNING in our service... written maybe a year ago?


CORNERSTONE - Hillsong lyrics

-Verse 1-
My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness
I dare not trust the sweetest frame
but wholly trust in Jesus' name

[Verse 1]

-Chorus-
Christ alone, Cornerstone
Weak made strong, in the Savior's love
Through the storm
He is Lord, Lord of All

-Verse 2-
When darkness seems to hide His face
I rest on His unchanging grace
In every high and stormy gale
My anchor holds within the veil

My anchor holds within the veil

[Chorus]
He is Lord, Lord of all

[Chorus 2x]

-Verse 3-
Then He shall come with trumpets sound
Oh, may I then in Him be found
Dressed in His righteousness alone
faultless, stand before the throne

[jinjer]

Actually Gary, those verse are from "My Hope is Built" written sometime around 1864. I do like the adaptation/arrangement though.

Jinjer

[Pastor Gary]

The hymns actually teach us so much, and I really can't think of any contemporary worship songs that do.

(More of a testimony song, but a good one.)

"We Are the Free" (Matt Redman)

We’re the forgiven, singing redemption's song
There's a fire that burns inside
A fire that burns inside
Nothing can stop us
We’ll be running through the night
With a fire that burns inside
A fire that burns inside

We are the free, the freedom generation
Singing of mercy
You are the One who set us all in motion
Yours is the glory
There’s a fire in our hearts and it burns for You
It’s never gonna fade away
We are the free, and Yours is the glory

We are the risen, living alive in You
And our passion will not die
No, our passion will not die
Nothing can stop us
We’ll be running through the night
And our passion will not die
No, our passion will not die

Chorus

Up from the grave You rose again
Up from the grave You rose and we will
Rise up, rise up
Into the world that You so love
Into the world we go and we will
Rise up, rise up

[Pastor Gary]

The hymns actually teach us so much, and I really can't think of any contemporary worship songs that do.

Not To Us lyrics

The cross before me the world behind
No turning back, raise the banner high
It's not for me, it's all for You

Let the heavens shake and split the sky
Let the people clap their hands and cry
It's not for us, it's all for You

[Chorus:]
Not to us, but to Your Name be the glory
Not to us, but to Your Name be the glory

Our hearts unfold before Your throne
The only place for those who know
It's not for us, It's all for You

Send Your holy fire on this offering
Let our worship burn for the world to see
It's not for us, It's all for You

[Chorus]

The earth is shaking, the mountains shouting
It's all for You
The waves are crashing, the sun is raging
It's all for You
The universe spinning and singing
It's all for You
The children dancing, dancing, dancing
It's all for You, It's all for You

My all for You
Not to us, but to Your Name be the glory
My all for You
Not to us, but to Your Name be the glory
My all for You
Not to us, but to Your Name be the glory

[Pastor Gary]

The hymns actually teach us so much, and I really can't think of any contemporary worship songs that do.

I see Your face in every sunrise
The colors of the morning are inside Your eyes
The world awakens in the light of the day
I look up to the sky and say
You’re beautiful

I see Your power in the moonlit night
Where planets are in motion and galaxies are bright
We are amazed in the light of the stars
It’s all proclaiming who You are
You’re beautiful, You're beautiful

I see you there hanging on a tree
You bled and then you died and then you rose again for me
Now you are sitting on Your heavenly throne
Soon we will be coming home
You’re beautiful, you're beautiful

When we arrive at eternity’s shore
Where death is just a memory and tears are no more
We’ll enter in as the wedding bells ring
Your bride will come together and we’ll sing
You’re beautiful, You're beautiful, You're beautiful

I see Your face, You're beautiful, You're beautiful, You're beautiful

[Pastor Gary]

Actually Gary, those verse are from "My Hope is Built" written sometime around 1864. I do like the adaptation/arrangement though.

I am aware that this is a modern adaptation of an older song. I am questioning what — exactly — people are referencing when they speak of shallow modern songs. I suspect if they posted examples of what they mean, I might agree, but it is usually a vague, non-specific criticism.

The lyrics I posted in this thread are the four songs we used today in our worship service, and, while they are not Shakespeare, they are meaningful.

[dolfan]

I can see that songs, like politics, is local. I don't wish to be critical publicly of a particular style and of people in my own church. Like I said, I sing on and go with it without complaint. But, I am the one who opened my big typing mouth.

Let me name some that I know by frequent repetition. There's No God Like Jehovah by Judy Jacobs. Peppy , easy to dance to. Vacant. Ive Got A Right To Praise Him. I Cry Freedom From The Chains. ( Most of these I have no idea the title, just the first line or tag line is given here). He Is Jealous For Me, loves Like A Hurricane I am a tree. (I wait for Yoko Ono to say koo koo ka choo on that one). That one about dancing like David. Oh, and I wanna dance a little longer than before, sing a little louder than before ( I think that's the same one as freedom from the chains).

To name a few.

[Pastor Gary]

Let me name some that I know by frequent repetition. There's No God Like Jehovah by Judy Jacobs. Peppy , easy to dance to. Vacant.

COMPLETELY agree.

Ive Got A Right To Praise Him.

Never heard it that I know of.

I Cry Freedom From The Chains.

Never heard it that I know of.

He Is Jealous For Me, loves Like A Hurricane I am a tree. (I wait for Yoko Ono to say koo koo ka choo on that one).

Okay, I actually like this song, because I know the story BEHIND the song.
http://jpjoyingod.blogspot.com/2010/03/ ... es-us.html

That one about dancing like David.

Never cared for that one much, myself.

I wanna dance a little longer than before, sing a little louder than before ( I think that's the same one as freedom from the chains).

Once again, never heard it that I know of.

[Phil Hoover]

Seems like so many of us have a "tunnel vision" worship idea.

We are told to worship with our hearts AND our minds.

These two are not mutually exclusive.

As I remember J E Brisson (the best pastor I ever had) once saying, "Make me laugh, make me cry, but DON'T make me THINK."

Sadly, that seems to be the mantra in a lot of places.

If I could be in charge of the "music" for one local congregation for ONE Sunday service...here's probably what we would sing:

And Can It Be? (Yep, that good song by Charles Wesley)

Majesty

Lord, I lift Your Name on High

O for a Thousand Tongues to Sing

How Great is Our God!

Song of Response (after the message): The Blood Will Never Lose It's Power...

[dolfan]

The hurricane song link you posted, Pastor Gary, was a good read. Seems that folks are all over the place on that song, too. I like the tune, the melody. I will catch myself singing it sometimes. But, I cringe at some points when we sing it at church. I always feel like I am listening to a pop music love song. Angst, emo, all that. And, just honesty, I don't like to cringe when we sing. I thought the guy's review of the song was spot on. I really liked one response someone posted that maybe worship leaders should take time to educate on lyrics instead of putting them on screen and running with them. Actually, as I consider it, that may only make it worse in some places.

I appreciate the back story and how personal that was for the writer. When it became published and not personal, in our touchy feely romance driven emotionally charged times, maybe some of that inspiration was lost in translation from private psalm to public merchandise.

[Phil Hoover]

who is a FABULOUS musician (and would be widely known if I gave their name) once told me (not too many years ago):

"Some of the stuff that we sing in our worship services now belongs in the PRIVATE PRAYER CLOSET...not in the corporate worship gathering."

Some of the stuff I've heard...I couldn't agree more.