The good ol' days

[Pastor Gary]

OK, Pastor Gary and others, now I'm confussed. Years ago in BTI we were taught that the COGOP was not a Pentecostal Church since we did not teach the church started on the Day of Pentecost...

I never went to "Beady-Eyes" myself, but I'm willing to bet you were also taught we are not a denomination. But we are.

...or that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was the primary experience. Rather, we were taught that accepting Christ, that is the salvation experience, was primary and was the only experience requirement before one could be a member (of course I know the four exturnal requirement, but that's another subject).

That was the theory, but was it our actual practice? Hardly. We treated non-tongues-speaking believers as if they were incomplete. We felt it our duty to fix them.

For the past decade our leaders have worked hard to dispell the notice that we are not part of the Pentecostal movement and that we should move towards a greater expression of the gifts of the Spirit and embrace the demonstration and power of the new revival movement.

I have no problem with embracing genuine expression of the gifts of the Spirit. I have a LOT of problems with what most often passes for genuine expression. IMHO most of what we see on TBN and the like that passes for pentecostalism is emotional claptrap, hype and showbiz. Not all, but most.

As for the new revival movement... I embrace all that is real in it and reject the phony.

Help, I need a label, so you guys choose one and stick to it or I'm going to get my BTI books out again.

Good idea.

[Brenda]

OK, Pastor Gary and others, now I'm confussed. Years ago in BTI we were taught that the COGOP was not a Pentecostal Church since we did not teach the church started on the Day of Pentecost or that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost was the primary experience. Rather, we were taught that accepting Christ, that is the salvation experience, was primary and was the only experience requirement before one could be a member (of course I know the four exturnal requirement, but that's another subject). For the past decade our leaders have worked hard to dispell the notice that we are not part of the Pentecostal movement and that we should move towards a greater expression of the gifts of the Spirit and embrace the demonstration and power of the new revival movement. So which is it? The one we were not but now are, the one we were but now are not, the one we should have been but could not be, the we should be but are not yet, or are we somewhere between Brownsville and Baptist. Help, I need a label, so you guys choose one and stick to it or I'm going to get my BTI books out again.

Firstson

This does seem to be confusing, don't it?
I went to BTI and this is the way I remember it also. The church is not a denomination but a church that Jesus set in order on MT. Hittin when he called unto him, whom he would and organized her.
Denominations are started by man or stemmed off from another organization. The BTI taught it was not a Pentacostal church because she didn't get her beginning then, she got her power then.
As for membership... only a saved experience is needed to become a member. Members are incouraged to seek the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. Seems these days tho, we don't hear too much of that emphasized. I personally think it should be. ( People need all they can get to with stand against satan in this day, for we're living in the end times.)
To this day, my son in law still hasn't received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and he's been a member long before he married my daughter and they have been married will be 22 years next month.

I think it would be good if we all took another look at the book. (BTI book that is) And see how it lines up with what is taught in there with the word of God. Sort of a review course.

[Kenya]

Is Kaneohe Hawaii too far to drive? I have a whole church full of people like you, and want a bunch more. I only have a few people who crave the noise and fury of a "traditional" Pentecostal-style meeting -- most of the folks at WWC are moved in a less demonstrative way, but they are indeed moved.

I, too, have had times where I have asked "Am I in the wrong place in a pentecostal church??" but I have come to understand that much of the pentecostal church is in a wrong place and out of order, and I am right where God has called me and where He has placed me.

Wish you folks were here. (Hey, and a trumpet player, too...)

Awww, shucks, Pastor G. Thanks. We kinda like you too. Oh, and Joey also plays drums, any brass instrument, guitar and is in the process of learning the banjo.

One of these days, we're coming to Hawaii (to visit).

Your words about pentecostalism have encouraged me. I really do feel like a square peg in a round hole sometimes. Not in my local church. I am right at home there (good thing since I am the worship leader). But I really feel out of place in some COGOP functions. Going out on a limb here, I remember when I was in chorale at TC. Looking back, there were times when I was not worshiping God (I thought I was at the time) - but I was trying to do what the other singers were doing and look like I was worshipping. Now, I wonder if some of them were doing the same thing I was. I had a really bad misconception of worship at that time. I don't think I was old enough or mature enough for the depth of it. And, the way we were taught during that time (at youth camp, etc), you were almost required to do certain things to qualify as being worship. And, as I have said before, I didn't understand the awesome grace of God - because I had never really messed up. Now, that I am older and in great need of a savior, it's like a light bulb has gone off and I get it! And I really don't care what everyone around me is doing if my heart is engulfed in the worship of my Father.

[dbserv]

To this day, my son in law still hasn't received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and he's been a member long before he married my daughter and they have been married will be 22 years next month.

I think it would be good if we all took another look at the book. (BTI book that is) And see how it lines up with what is taught in there with the word of God. Sort of a review course.

I don't know if I'd start comparing the old BTI books to the Bible or not. That's what I did and the Spirit led me right out the door as I walked in the Light.


As for your son-in-law. This is a real issue that I have with P/C churches.

If this man has been faithfully serving God for over 22 years, walking in the light to the best of his knowledge, THEN HE IS INDEED FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Maybe God hasn't chosen to operate the Gift of Tongues through him, but what about all of the other Gifts that are being operated through him.

I'll bet that this poor man has lived a second class citizenship Christian life for all these years. JUST BECAUSE HE DOESN'T SPEAK IN TONGUES!!!

How sad, how defeatedness, how miserable for us to lay that burden on a brother.

Is he still trying to get "sanctified" too??? If he got that "experience" then send him over to a Nazarene church. In their opinion, he's got the Baptism of the Holy Spirit at that point.

This matter of semantics over when, where, how, etc. drives good Christian folks into a life of dispair and longing. Instead of focusing on the Great Commission, they are forced to focus on "getting the blessing" so they are good enough to "GO".

You know, if they don't have that "oil in the lamp" (another historic misusage of Scripture), they won't make it in to the Wedding Supper.

"Oh God, please, please, please fill me. Here I lay in sackcloth and ashes with my body beaten and slashed as yours was. Please fill me with the H.S. Please, please, please!!!"



Do your son-in-law a tremendous favor. Print out this post and give it to him with this message.



Rise Up Oh Man of God. Go out to conquer the world knowing that the Holy Spirit is already within you. If and when the H.S. uses your vocal chords to pray, sing, speak (whatever) in tongues, say Thank You Lord. In the meantime say Thank You Lord for the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit that are already operating in your life.

Do not be bound down by man's rigid interpretation of how the H.S. is supposed to move in your life. Do not allow satan to use other people to keep you from flowing in the Spirit. Allow the H.S. to flow through you just like you have been for all these years. You are FILLED!!!

[Brenda]

Dan

I don't know if I'd start comparing the old BTI books to the Bible or not.

I think you misunderstood me.. I am not comparing the BTI book with the Bible. I said we need to get the book out and compare what it says to the word of God.
If the word of God leads us away from the BTI book, so let it. If the BTI book doesn't line up with the word of God, then it needs to be trashed! Thats my opinion.

As for my son in law.. He's a fine young man. No one harps on him, for not receiving as you say... The Tongues.
Sure when your saved you have the Holy Ghost.. The Holy Ghost is the third person of the God head that does the conviction and does the work. But there's a differance in having him and being Baptised in him.

Just wondering don't you believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidance of speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives the utterance as took place on the day of Pentacost?
If he was needfull for the early church, don't you think he is needfull for the later days church?

[Pastor Gary]

Beady eyes? Who or what is that?

Little southernism -- when I lived in Alabama people would say they went to BTI and it would sound like they said "Beady Eye" and it became sort of a joke to pronounce it that way.

OK, so I take it that you no longer believe that the filling of a person with the Spirit of God will cause him/her to speak with other tongues, right?

What could I have said to make you assume that?? Huh??

No, that is not my position. My position is that the filling of the person with the Holy Spirit is not always evidenced by tongues. Tongues are AN evidence, and a valid one, but not the SINGULAR evidence.

[scooter]

You are FILLED!!!

Response: Your opinion? If the truth is to be known you really have no idea how full that man is or do you?

What would it be to tell a man he is filled when he isn't?

If you personally know this man and his walk I could be wrong.

[Brenda]

Gary

Little southernism -- when I lived in Alabama people would say they went to BTI and it would sound like they said "Beady Eye" and it became sort of a joke to pronounce it that way.

Maybe we should of stuck to the original.
BTC...

How could we mess up those letters? Just a thought.

[Firstson]

Just for the record, after posting my "tongue-in-check" (it always comes back to tongues) comment about BTI, the nature of the church, our relationship to the Pentecostal Movement and labels, let me be clear. I do think the COGOP has grown in its understanding about some subjects over the last few years and the old BTI books are tucked way back on my bookshelf. However, I think we could use something like BTI again in the organization to provide Bible training for lay members, along with fellowship and a since of unity and purpose.

Concerning the nature of the church, I still believe Jesus organized it with the Apostles during His earthly ministry and that the Day of Pentecost was the inpowering that was promised. I do not believe the church was an out growth of the experience of the out-pouring of Holy Spirit, nor that the Baptism of the Spirit is the central message of the church. Christ is central, but we must preach all His nature, including that His baptism is one of the Holy Ghost and fire.

The COGOP has at its core the teachings of the Holiness/Pentecostal Movement and for the most part emulates this movement in ethos, sturcture and practice. Perhaps we still reflect some of the earlier elements of the movement, but we preach the same basic message out of the same scriptures, we live much the same lifestyle and worship much the same way, even singing the same songs. There is variation from congregation to congregation, but the same core beliefs.

Concerning the importance of being open to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the full operation (restoration) of the gifts in the church (the general since of the word church), I do not believe we can afford to retreat. Studies have shown that as many as 8 out of 10 people being saved today around the world are being saved in Pentecostal style churches. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the gifts operating in their fullness, has done move to bring Christians together in a unity of belief then any man made effort. What the World Council of Churches can not do by believing nothing God says so they can be open to everyone, the Holy Spirit is doing by filling anyone who is willing to believe everything God said.

I know those that went before me, including some in my own family, suffered much so that I could worship God in the the fullness of the Spirit. Much of what they suffered was at the hands of good Baptist and Methodist who called speaking in other tongues of the devil. It was good religous people who said they did not need to speak in tongues to have the Baptism who shot at Pentecostal homes during the night, killed their livestock, burned their barns, cut down their tents, beat them with wipes, put them in jail and tried to run them out of town. No, we have come to far to simply retreat to silence so worship services can flow and we can get at a 12 on the nose.

Firstson

[Pastor Bill]

AMEN! Isn't that what the church of Ephesus was warned against. The spirit told them they were doing GREAT! but they had 1 sin against them. They did not love with the intensity that they did at first. Somehow! we have grown used to the idea that the zeal, excitement, and passion that you have for Christ right when you got saved is supposed to fade. And, that's normal. Well, God's word doesn't call it normal; It calls is SIN.

the church at Ephesus was told to repent of that very Sin; Last year I was called to repent of that sin.

All: Do you have the same zeal for Christ that you had when you first got saved?

Pastor Daryl

AMEN! even right in the middle of this conversation God is dealing with me on some of these things right now through our revival. I have said many times both here and to those around me that our church is full of very young, baby christians. It is true, but that doesn't mean God want's to keep us there. I had been looking and looking for growth, and seeing some, but at the same time making excuses for things rather than just dealing with them. Last night the Evangelist really brought a good message about being broken. Letting God come in and break our will, so that he can build us in His will. Well some things hit me very hard, and after we finished the service and everyone went home, my wife and son headed upstairs to the parsonage and God broke me. We spent some time and I just listened, and I needed that. Keep me in prayers, God has laid alot of work out before me, and I have to stay focused on what HE can do, and not what I am doing. I had grown comfortable in some things that I need to keep seeking in, and not settle.

I know this may not have alot to do with this conversation, but I am seeing God move and I am seeing the zeal come back, but it has to start with a yearning to get ourselves in line with where God wants us, and we can't wait on everyone else, or look at the churches condition and expect for God to use us to stir things up till we are stired ourselves. I had been looking back to where I had been and was wanting to see God move for the church in the ways I had seen Him move in my life, and that is great, but in the mean time I had been putting my own self on hold waiting for everyone to "catch up" (this sounds awful writting it out, and I really didn't realize I was doing it at the time, but now I can see that attitude had tried to take root in me, and I had let it sneek in)

Keep me in prayers, and even more than that everyone keep your pastors and leaders in prayers, we need it, and many times we can be more hard-headed than our most frustrating members.

[Pastor Bill]

Well, I told Joey that Berea wouldn't be too awful of a drive if something happened to our church.

Oh, and Kenya I would love to have you, but unfortunatly I only work in Berea, I pastor in Mt Sterling, so for you Berea would only be about halfway Probably a little too far to drive and still be very active in the church. When I took the church we moved there and now I deal with about an hour's commute every day to get to my day job. I did have a lady I went to church with while I lived in Berea that commuted from Pulaski County, but I think she was on this side of Somerset out in the country, so it was a little closer. She had grown up in that church and after moving still drove about 45 minutes each way to attend every service. Her husband got saved and they found a church a little closer to home to make it easier on his schedule, and now attend the CoG in Mt Vernon.

[Pastor Bill]

Awww, shucks, Pastor G. Thanks. We kinda like you too. Oh, and Joey also plays drums, any brass instrument, guitar and is in the process of learning the banjo.

And I really don't care what everyone around me is doing if my heart is engulfed in the worship of my Father.

Alright that's it, now your just teasing me, forget what I said about the long drive, it's a beautiful and relaxing drive that you should take at least three times a week. Don't want to take you away from your Dad's church, but then our midweek services are on Tuesdays (Bible Study) and Thursdays (Worship Service), so you can still visit him on Wednesdays come on, how 'bout it?

[Pastor Bill]

OK, so then I must follow with:

1. Must there be an evidence or various evidences?

2. What are those evidences?

Tongues is the only sign that was present in every NT instance of a person being baptised in the Holy Ghost, and it was used as a sign by Peter in Acts chapter 10.

I think the problem in the church is not in seeing tongues as the sign of the Baptism of the HG, but in that many do not understand that God can still use those that have not received the baptism. Many feel that the Spiritual gifts will never be manifest in anyone till they receive the baptism, but we can see all of these gifts in use throughout the OT, and the as the disciples were sent out before the baptism was poured out on the day of pentecost.

We can't look at those without the Baptism as second class Christians, but neither should we deny the gift, or the signs of it God has given us. Personally I don't know of anyone who has received the baptism without speaking in tongues, I think that releasing control of your speech and allowing God to speak through you is one of the most humbling and surrendering experiences you can ever have. I don't know what other signs other ministers use, but I know tongues is biblically used as evidence, and that it is mentioned consistantly in all references I have found. I may be a little backwards about this, but since that is the only sign I see used biblically, I am afraid to try to judge other things. If a person feels they have received the HG and not spoken in tongues, that's between them and God, but for me, I prefer to stick with only trusting the evidence I am sure of.

[dbserv]

I understood what you were saying about the BTI book(s). I agree with you. I was just pointing out what happened when I did that very thing.

You are FILLED!!!

Response: Your opinion? If the truth is to be known you really have no idea how full that man is or do you?

What would it be to tell a man he is filled when he isn't?

If you personally know this man and his walk I could be wrong.

You are right Scooter. I don't know this man, so I shouldn't just assume that he is "full". My "You are FILLED!!!" statement was a conclusion (my opinion, of course) based on the previous statements that I had made:

1. "If this man has been faithfully serving God for over 22 years, walking in the light to the best of his knowledge, THEN HE IS INDEED FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. Maybe God hasn't chosen to operate the Gift of Tongues through him, but what about all of the other Gifts that are being operated through him."

2. "Do not be bound down by man's rigid interpretation of how the H.S. is supposed to move in your life. Do not allow satan to use other people to keep you from flowing in the Spirit. Allow the H.S. to flow through you just like you have been for all these years."



I realize that most people in the P/C world won't agree with me. But, I have spent enough time (22 years) worshiping with people from both sides of the issue. Believe me when I tell you that many non-tongue speaking people are more "filled with the Spirit" than many tongue talkers are.

I don't consider tongues to be any more of an indication of being "filled" than the Fruit of the Spirit or the operation of any other Gift. I know the P/C doctrinal line, so you don't need to go there unless you want to. I used to believe it and preached it!!! I also preached many other things that were not correct. So did the Bishops and Overseers of COGOP (and they aren't alone in error preaching).

Just because we have always preached and taught it a certain way doesn't make it so.

If people want to believe that they have to speak in tongues to believe they are "filled", that's their business. But, it is not good to enforce that on other people. To do so is judgmental and condescending - AGAIN, in my opinion!

I used to be impressed by people who gave "messages" and "interpretations" until I realized how many of them were personal agenda items. I also saw too many tongue talking shows put on to show the visiting Baptists, etc. how lacking they were and how "spiritual" the tongue talkers were. The lives of these people away from the church service did not conform to the life a Spirit-filled person would live.

Tongue talking doesn't impress me at all. I can do it with the best of them and never be in the Spirit, well at least not the Holy Spirit.

Don't get me wrong, I still speak in tongues WHEN THE HOLY SPIRIT MOVES.

If I don't see the Fruit of the Spirit and the other Gifts of the Spirit in operation in a person's life, then all of their tongue talking is just as annoying as a noisy gong or cymbal. Try listening to a cymbal played by itself constantly. It won't take long for you to shut that person down.

[Brenda]

Kenya wrote:
I really don't care what everyone around me is doing if my heart is engulfed in the worship of my Father.




I think this is what worship is all about. Worshiping him in spirit and in truth!
When we ALL can get into this frame of worship, I believe the windows of heaven will open and HE will pour out his blessings.
Blessings of forgiveness.. Blessings of hurt, anger, prideful things in our life and etc..
For their in the presence of the all mighty we find out how insignificate we truly are. Our everything is in him!
So for get about ourselves and consentrate on him and worship him, as the song goes. For HE is worthy!!