Why did you leave?

[stevenson]

I hate this topic because it reminds me of all the good people this organization has lost. And the ones that have left are the ones you really want to stay with the exception of a few.

[DeWayneTN]

I hate this topic because it reminds me of all the good people this organization has lost.

I agree with you. I am glad it's not like it was where it's always a "hard cut" and you never hear from them again. This board itself proves that bridges don't have to be burned. I have had friends leave and go in all sorts of directions but we still have contact. We are still friends . . . . if I have anything to do with it.

I guess you could liken it to a family. We are all a part of a family and if some move off on their own or join other families or go join the circus, we can all meet back for famiy reunions.

[amydawn]

My question is.. can a person who believes in this, leave a church where it is believed, experienced and be happy where its not believed on?

Hope I'm making my self clear.

I think I'm starting to get ya. Let's see iffin I do, by this answer... in 2000 words or less...

My jaded perspective on church/fellowshipping with other believers, is that, unfortunately, at least in my geographic area, you can’t have it all.

So you prioritize. What’s more important? It’s a personal decision.

Sure, I missed the more emotional worship atmosphere a little AT FIRST, but to be honest… the more I LEARN, the more I appreciate sound doctrinal teaching, even if it means the loss of the teary-eyed-get your adrenaline pumping stuff.

And to be honest, the more I learn, the most I see through the teary-eyed stuff. The manifestations that Pentecostals seem to hold up so high and honor so much through their tradition, are really not the things God digs, according to His word anyway…

So, did I get ya? The answer is yes --- there is happiness after cogop.

[Brenda]

Thanks Amy for your answer.

Ok.. this is what happened.
My husband and I went to a church last Sunday.. good doctrine on salvation. Good sound preaching from the pulpit. They have a desire for souls. They have an all out good assortment of different age groups. Seems they have a great outreach program for soul winning.
Their doctrine is forgiveness and holy living. And I believe this is the most important part of any doctrine.

But knowing there is a further step to obtain and they don't teach it. The indwelling of the Holy Ghost.. I'm not talking about the shout, the running of the isles, the holloring, the gymnastics of it all.. far from me on that also.
But if while praying and the Holy Ghost speaks through you are we going to quench him from speaking because we are in a church that don't teach it and don't allow the gifts of the spirit to work.
Thats why I'm wondering if a person can be happy there after experiencing the freedom of the spirit. Even the messages and interpretations.

This is something I'm seeking an answer on.
I'm not trying to throw up accusations of any kind, just wondering if there are any who have left and been happy in an organization that don't teach the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I think of the scripture Acts 19:2-6

I'm not pointing fingers. And I hope I'm not coming off that I am.

The answer is yes --- there is happiness after cogop.

.... Thank you, again.

[Pastor Bill]

Personally I think we need to God, I have been in alot of services, and I don't mind the shouting and running IF IT'S GOD, and I don't mind the silent peaceful spirit IF IT'S GOD, personally I don't like to see us characterize what God is going to do or not to do, but rather to seek and be open to His will, and He will lead us in what is best for us, and best for the work He is doing, because He knows what that is better than we do.

You should be free to shout if the Lord leads you to shout, or cry if the Lord leads you to cry, sing if He leads you to sing, and no one should try to direct that, teach you what to do, or limit you other than Him.

It really isn't supposed to be about US running things anyway.

[amydawn]

This whole conversation is making me think of the saying:

"God's Word is His Will."


I've come to the belief that the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" isn't a 'baptism', or a separate act, or even evidenced by tongues. Based on that believing, it's easier for me to see God (and Godly behavior) manifested through gifts that actually end up being more profitable to all (and self), and actually end up bringing glory to the Father. It's hardly ever, IF ever, tongues of another language. I cannot tell you that I can honestly recall a situation in corporate church setting where I can say --- oh yeah, that definately brought glory to the Father and edified the body. I can tell you that it often made people 'feel' good.

It's easier for me to see God, and the purpose of a church-body established by Christ, in settings of believers who actually, and literally bless one another with their God-given gifts, and not just when the piano is playing softly. Know what I mean?

Another thing this conversation is making me think about , and it's a statement I've worn out the past few years... I put these behaviors through this filter when I'm not sure what's going on, and it often becomes immediately clear... whatever the behavior:

"Who is getting the glory?"

I'm not sure that God is actually speaking to people in church settings and proding them to dance/shout/speak in tongues, whatever, as much as it is happening, and when it IS happening contrary to His written established Word, which declares His will (no confusion, done in order, edification of the body, glory to the Father), I am willing to be certain it isn't God directing that behavior.

God's Word Is God's Will. Who is being edified? Who is getting the glory?

Brenda, your demeanor is very pleasant and sincere ... I'm enjoying this conversation. Thanks...

[Dr. Ron]

Brenda,
You know me. You remember all the wonderful times of the past that we have discussed.
However, you might be a tad disappointed in me if you came to my church now. By design, we have stopped all the "manifestations" of pentecostal worship in the congregational worship times. When God directed me to start this church, I immediately thought that I would have a great revival center. As I prayed and said God I don't want this to be a church of disgruntled people so we took the denom sign down but carry on business as usual.
The Lord directed me that I would not be allowed to open the revival center. I argued with him that I knew how to do that very well. He argued back that it was not what he was desiring here in this area. He directed me to totally re-invent myself. I was to have a balanced church with discipleship as the focal point. Imagine the shock of some of my members when I began to use power point sermons and all that stuff.

Do we teach baptism of the holy spirit? Yes but only in small group settings. The operation of those things is for that arena. Pastor Bill said that if God moved on you to shout or whatever, it is okey and no body should tell you what to do. I adamantly disagree with him. "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet". I have a pretty good rule here. If you do not shout, run , jump, or speak in tongues in your private devotion , you cannot do it in the service.

Do not worry my dear. Read the book "Purpose Driven Life". The first line of the book says ,"It's not about you". Pentecostals have a tough time with that. Enjoy the Lord.

[dalebert]

I guess i ponder this thought.....we(humans) express our emotions in the natural in different ways. We cry, scream, laugh, shout, run, jump and any other way when we experience different things in life. In the spirit we question the same emotions when it comes to how we react to worshiping God or how we feel when we recieve form God. Now i know that my relationship with God is not about emotions but faith . But there are times when God does things for me that make my emotions flood over and depending on how strong at the time, i could react to any number of emotional things. And I'm just expressing myself in thanks to my God. I dont think one has to act always in a way that it becomes an hinder to others but i would hope that i could be free to express myself to God that would be pleasing unto Him. IMHO.....

[Dr. Ron]

dalebert,
Good point. But do it in decency and order. When the time is right for emotional display, it's okey. In the Bahamas, they have (or did have) a shouting bell. The people could shout and dance until the pastor rung the bell then they had to sit down and be quiet. We control our emotions. How we respond to that is up to us, but it is kinda like smoking ( boy this is gonna get me in trouble), you have a right to do it but not when it affects me. The reason there are so many churches is that some people need to let go, I guess. So, there are churches that allow and encourage that. I once did. But the Lord led me into another direction. I didn't even like the new direction until I began to see the results.
Every congregation needs to know why it exists. Some exist for the benefit of those who need the emotional out burst.ect.
But no-one should be given the idea that all churches should operate the same or exist for the same reasons. All of us have a work to do. But, there are different folks ........different strokes.

[amydawn]

I guess i ponder this thought.....we(humans) express our emotions in the natural in different ways. We cry, scream, laugh, shout, run, jump and any other way when we experience different things in life. In the spirit we question the same emotions when it comes to how we react to worshiping God or how we feel when we recieve form God. Now i know that my relationship with God is not about emotions but faith . But there are times when God does things for me that make my emotions flood over and depending on how strong at the time, i could react to any number of emotional things. And I'm just expressing myself in thanks to my God. I dont think one has to act always in a way that it becomes an hinder to others but i would hope that i could be free to express myself to God that would be pleasing unto Him. IMHO.....

Okay.... except that = God's WORD is His will... and He will not instruct you to do something contrary to what He has already established.... and He has already established to order of the congregating of believers. So if you can squeeze your runnin' and shoutin' and whatever elsin' you're doin' into the parameters He has already established.... hey, great.

But I don't see it.

And also, I am so OVER the "well people act all nutso at football games and no one thinks anything of it, so if I wanna act all nutso for God, I'm gonna..."

I'm hoping someday we realize that God's word deals with our relationship with Him.... and it doesn't really speak to the stadium hoopla... and the two are SO not comparable.

And anyway, acting all charasmatic at the football game actually does bring (a type of) glory to the football team. I'm not sure it's a direct translation to --- acting that way in church must also bring glory to the Father.

Again, I don't see it.

[Kenya]

Brenda,
You know me. You remember all the wonderful times of the past that we have discussed.
However, you might be a tad disappointed in me if you came to my church now. By design, we have stopped all the "manifestations" of pentecostal worship in the congregational worship times. When God directed me to start this church, I immediately thought that I would have a great revival center. As I prayed and said God I don't want this to be a church of disgruntled people so we took the denom sign down but carry on business as usual.
The Lord directed me that I would not be allowed to open the revival center. I argued with him that I knew how to do that very well. He argued back that it was not what he was desiring here in this area. He directed me to totally re-invent myself. I was to have a balanced church with discipleship as the focal point. Imagine the shock of some of my members when I began to use power point sermons and all that stuff.

Do we teach baptism of the holy spirit? Yes but only in small group settings. The operation of those things is for that arena. Pastor Bill said that if God moved on you to shout or whatever, it is okey and no body should tell you what to do. I adamantly disagree with him. "The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet". I have a pretty good rule here. If you do not shout, run , jump, or speak in tongues in your private devotion , you cannot do it in the service.

Do not worry my dear. Read the book "Purpose Driven Life". The first line of the book says ,"It's not about you". Pentecostals have a tough time with that. Enjoy the Lord.

Pastor Ron, I continue to gain new respect for you. We are definitely on the same page. I told Joey the other day, especially since Daddy's death, I am past the "emotional feel good fix" that is associated with Pentecostals. I want to LEARN. I want to be challenged with the Word. I want to improve my standards of living. I want to BE like Jesus. I often asked my dad why he raised me Pentecostal - because give me the Word any day over a feel good service. He said he didn't know - that he's asked himself that same question many times.

[MrDanger]

He directed me to totally re-invent myself. I was to have a balanced church with discipleship as the focal point. Imagine the shock of some of my members when I began to use power point sermons and all that stuff.

I was pleasantly surprised. I called my mom on the way home from the service and said, "The evangelist has become a pastor." Very enjoyable service (worship and sermon).

[dolfan]

I am encouraged and heartened at what I see on this thread. And, I also am encouraged and heartened that those who honestly see, understand and believe from Scripture an occurrence of "Spirit baptism" with speaking in tongues, etc. is desireable and proper for believers everywhere today can have such a warm regard for those who honestly see, understand and believe from Scripture differently, and vice versa.

There are connections that I get from this board that I'd LOVE to have in my own local church, but they don't happen. Heck, I don't even share with my wife about my involvement on J2. She would be very disturbed that I'm still very warm toward COGOP, former COGOP, etc., in this particular way. She doesn't ask, I don't tell.

It is an undeniable asset to my walk with Christ, though. I'm glad there is a spirit of love and acceptance, and (dare I say it?) unity here. Even when some flames get thrown, it gets patched up more often than not, just like real families.


Alright, enough with the syrupy mushiness. Now, I feel like some one ought to cry and say, "I love you, man...."

[EagerBeaver]

"I love you, man...."

You said it first....but you're not getting my Bud Light.

Hahahaha.....sorry, lame joke of the day.

Anyhoo, on a serious note, I have not left COGOP, but I have come close on many an occasion. The biggest reason for me would have to be doctrinal disagreements. There are just some tweaks that have affected me in the past and still kinda affect me, but COGOP is where I am called right now and I don't feel a desire to leave anytime soon.

[Pastor Bill]

Dr. Ron, you quoted PDL saying "it's not about you" and that is actually been a main focus of my ministry lately, but I do still believe in the manifestations of the spirit, I know they've been abused, and we do have to deal with that, but I wouldn't go to the point of forbidding them.

You said you wouldn't allow them unless someone also manifested them in private devotions, and in some ways I can see that, and I do manifest those in my times alone with God, it's not just for the show (as I have seen in some people, and some churches), but also we can't really apply that to all things either. I don't tend to operate in the gift of healing in my private devotions, so does that mean I shouldn't pray with someone in church for their healing?

Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater here. There is alot of fake emotionalism out there that has no place in the church. And there is alot of "do it just like me" mentality out there as well that has to go, but that doesn't mean we should jump the the other extreme of forbidding people to allow God to move on them in certain ways just because it has been abused in the past.