Why did you leave?

[MrDanger]

Alright, enough with the syrupy mushiness. Now, I feel like some one ought to cry and say, "I love you, man...."

Don't forget the hug with the manly pat on the back to affirm our straightness.

[Dr. Ron]

dolfan,
i love you man..................but I ain't gonna give you my ............
I also don't know how to do those little face things I see on the left side of my computer screen.

One day I am gonna learn how to use this thing right.

[Pastor Bill]

dalebert,
Good point. But do it in decency and order. When the time is right for emotional display, it's okey. In the Bahamas, they have (or did have) a shouting bell. The people could shout and dance until the pastor rung the bell then they had to sit down and be quiet. We control our emotions. How we respond to that is up to us, but it is kinda like smoking ( boy this is gonna get me in trouble), you have a right to do it but not when it affects me. The reason there are so many churches is that some people need to let go, I guess. So, there are churches that allow and encourage that. I once did. But the Lord led me into another direction. I didn't even like the new direction until I began to see the results.
Every congregation needs to know why it exists. Some exist for the benefit of those who need the emotional out burst.ect.
But no-one should be given the idea that all churches should operate the same or exist for the same reasons. All of us have a work to do. But, there are different folks ........different strokes.

Dr. Ron,

Now that I can agree with. There is a time and place, and there must be order to the service. I believe you can have that without some of the restrictions you previously mentioned, but if that is where God is leading you for that particular congregation, He knows what you need there, I just don't think that can be applied globally either.

[Pastor Bill]

I guess i ponder this thought.....we(humans) express our emotions in the natural in different ways. We cry, scream, laugh, shout, run, jump and any other way when we experience different things in life. In the spirit we question the same emotions when it comes to how we react to worshiping God or how we feel when we recieve form God. Now i know that my relationship with God is not about emotions but faith . But there are times when God does things for me that make my emotions flood over and depending on how strong at the time, i could react to any number of emotional things. And I'm just expressing myself in thanks to my God. I dont think one has to act always in a way that it becomes an hinder to others but i would hope that i could be free to express myself to God that would be pleasing unto Him. IMHO.....

Amy, what if it doesn't become a hinderance to others, why does everyone assume that the spirit moving on someone in an emotional way will hinder others. Honestly if it's truely God it is NOT going to hinder others, yet putting restrictions on the way people can interact with God or react to God does.
Okay.... except that = God's WORD is His will... and He will not instruct you to do something contrary to what He has already established.... and He has already established to order of the congregating of believers. So if you can squeeze your runnin' and shoutin' and whatever elsin' you're doin' into the parameters He has already established.... hey, great.

But I don't see it.

And also, I am so OVER the "well people act all nutso at football games and no one thinks anything of it, so if I wanna act all nutso for God, I'm gonna..."

I'm hoping someday we realize that God's word deals with our relationship with Him.... and it doesn't really speak to the stadium hoopla... and the two are SO not comparable.

And anyway, acting all charasmatic at the football game actually does bring (a type of) glory to the football team. I'm not sure it's a direct translation to --- acting that way in church must also bring glory to the Father.

Again, I don't see it.

[amydawn]

Amy, what if it doesn't become a hinderance to others, why does everyone assume that the spirit moving on someone in an emotional way will hinder others.

Because it usually does, and we all know about it and joke about it at the Big Boy afterwards. Seriously... (as serious as I can be, which ain't much today)... hinderance, annoyance, just plain ole- out of order... pick a word. I would never say it's "always" anything.... because maybe it's all cool.

Honestly if it's truely God it is NOT going to hinder others, yet putting restrictions on the way people can interact with God or react to God does.

So you vote then, who gets to stay on the island.

The people without restraint - who don't seem to understand yet that even during manifestations of Holy Spirit, God has not taken away our free will.... and will operate it to edify themselves personally because they "feel an unction" (whatever that means)....

or....

the people who get wierded out, turned off, frustrated, annoyed and undertaught and untaught because they aren't presently basking in the emotionally limelight?


I'm not saying I have the answer... I'm just telling you how I feel. It's annoying, in the least, when you would like to hear the Word of God taught, but one or two or six other ya ya sistas would rather manifest speaking in tongues. Who's right... I dunno... but I'm not down with it.

[Pastor Bill]

Kenya,

Are those two things mutually exclusive? can't a person have both, being challenged by the word, but also an emotional relationship with God?

I want to be challenged by the Word, but I also have times when I just need to cry out to God, it may be shouts of excitement, it may be tears of joy, it may be crys for understanding or direction. I don't see these things as being exclusive to one another, the key is to be seeking both.

There are times I need the emotional, God picking me up and holding me close to him, it shouldn't be out of order, or cause confusion, but if it's God, He will take care of that. The problems come when one is chosen over the other to the point of excluding it completely, then we begin expecting people to worship God on our guidelines, and based on our relationship rather than letting God lead them in what they need.

[Dr. Ron]

Pastor Bill,

If you knew me and my background more, some of your concerns would be automatically answered. However, since you don't know me I will explain a little further.
I stopped all "messages and interpretation" in the congregational worship because the word says that " the spirit and the word must agree". It is my responsibility to judge that as the shephard of this flock. When I had several of these instances where the spirit did not agree with the word I knew that it was more damaging than beneficial. I hold people accountable. I have stopped all "prophetic words unless they are told to me first and I will judge them by the Word and if they are legitimate, I will share them with the congregation.
The house of God has been so abused for a circus mentality, that it is time to stop and take a long hard look at what we do in "congregational" worship. We do have believer's services so that people can express themselves in their worship. There is nothing wrong or unscriptural about designing your congregational worship to enhance the word and not be offensive. That word offensive is not meant to be in the context of " well bless God if they don't like it they don't have to come back". That's not what I mean. It sometimes means that it confuses people as to what the real purpose of christianity is. We must lay a firm foundation and not allow the "more spiritual" among us to just get their fix for the day.
We do have prayer for the needs of the people every service. When God chooses to perform miracles ( which is more regular than previously) I don't get the glory because I have the prayer team take care of this during P&W. God does speak to us , but we have learned how to make sure we are cautious about what gets promoted. I would not allow anyone to come into a congregational meeting and stand up and start giving out stuff. I could have inherited 300 people from a wof church that recently went belly up if I would have let them dance in the aisles and run and jump and give words all over the place. That is why they went belly up.. Some one gave a word and they all jumped on board...Today their new building was sold on the court house steps. They owed 3 1/2 milliion because of a "Word"
No, I don't throw out the baby. I just believe in accountability.

[Pastor Gary]

I dont think one has to act always in a way that it becomes an hinder to others but i would hope that i could be free to express myself to God that would be pleasing unto Him. IMHO.....

Ever participate in any kind of area-wide evangelistic crusade, like a Billy Graham Crusade or a Harvest Crusade? You know, one of those where all kind of churches come together in an arena or stadium?

There was DEFINITELY a move of the Holy Spirit present to cause hundreds or even thousands to respond to the invitation (since conviction is a work of the Spirit) but did you cry out, scream, wail, run the bleachers, jerk and shout? NO.

And the reason? You KNEW it was out of place and inappropriate. It would have HINDERED the real move of God going on at that moment and drawn attention TO YOU and OFF of HIM. I have been in this thing all my life, and my mother and grandmother before me, and I have seen it all. Are there times and places where the emotional overflow is in order? Sure. Is that time and place every time the doors open? I have come to believe "NO."

Taking a hard look at my pentecostal history, I have to say honestly that much of what I have seen has been flesh-candy resulting in Holy Ghost goose-bumps, drawing attention to the person manifesting and away from the Lord. If our goal, our aim, is to bring glory and honor to the Lord Jesus Christ, and cause people to be drawn unto Him by lifting Him up, we need to take a good hard look at a video tape of our services and see how much of what happens there is "WE" focus and how much is "HE" focus.

[Kenya]

Kenya,

Are those two things mutually exclusive? can't a person have both, being challenged by the word, but also an emotional relationship with God?

I want to be challenged by the Word, but I also have times when I just need to cry out to God, it may be shouts of excitement, it may be tears of joy, it may be crys for understanding or direction. I don't see these things as being exclusive to one another, the key is to be seeking both.

There are times I need the emotional, God picking me up and holding me close to him, it shouldn't be out of order, or cause confusion, but if it's God, He will take care of that. The problems come when one is chosen over the other to the point of excluding it completely, then we begin expecting people to worship God on our guidelines, and based on our relationship rather than letting God lead them in what they need.

Of course, they can be used mutually. But if I had my choice of an emotional experience or a Word experience, I would choose the Word - hands down. I have watched TOO many people put their whole Christianity into how they FEEL and Feelings just don't always last. Our commitment to God lasts in the middle of whatever "feelings" we have. Yes, I believe in the gifts of the Spirit - all of them. I just don't believe that ALL of them happen to EVERYONE ALL of the time. AND, I believe that our church (and most other Pentecostal churches) have put WAY too much emphasis on one or two of the gifts. Personally, I would rather see manifestations of the fruits - rather than the gifts.

Now, all that having been said.....I think it is fine to get excited about being a Christian and excited about Worship. As long as it is in order. I also believe that emotional experiences can work in ministry when someone is hurting. Tears and hugs, etc. I am not downing that. I also believe in raising my hands in worship as a submission and surrender to God. However, when people are reserved about coming to our church because of the reputation of Pentecostals, I am concerned.

One of our new people brought her mother to church a couple of Sundays ago. When they pulled up at the church, her mother said "Amy, you didn't tell me this was a COGOP church!" And she didn't want to come in. Amy convinced her that there wouldn't be people running the aisles and acting crazy. She was pleasantly surprised after she finally came in ....and said she would be back. And she is even bringing HER parents now.

Now.....if I were to choose between the Word and emotion, I would rather choose the Word and keep this new convert. There is a time and a place for the other. Sunday morning with a church full of visitors is NOT the time - unless God just won't have it any other way. Our church does not quench the Spirit - we are listening very carefully to the Spirit. That is why we are gaining new members.

[Pastor Bill]

Amy, what if it doesn't become a hinderance to others, why does everyone assume that the spirit moving on someone in an emotional way will hinder others.

Because it usually does, and we all know about it and joke about it at the Big Boy afterwards. Seriously... (as serious as I can be, which ain't much today)... hinderance, annoyance, just plain ole- out of order... pick a word. I would never say it's "always" anything.... because maybe it's all cool.

Usually, humans do get in the way of God things, that doesn't mean we reject God's way of doing it, but we need to work with people to draw them closer to God's ways and away from our human ways.

Humanly we tend to swing from one extreme to the other, but in Christ there is a balance, Grace/Law, Emotion/Mind, we can easily swing too far to one side, and either side can be a problem. Give up the emotional and the grace, you end up with legalism, give up the mental or the Law (Word) you end up following a charismatic leader getting ready to down a glass of kool-aid.

Honestly if it's truely God it is NOT going to hinder others, yet putting restrictions on the way people can interact with God or react to God does.

So you vote then, who gets to stay on the island.

The people without restraint - who don't seem to understand yet that even during manifestations of Holy Spirit, God has not taken away our free will.... and will operate it to edify themselves personally because they "feel an unction" (whatever that means)....

or....

the people who get wierded out, turned off, frustrated, annoyed and undertaught and untaught because they aren't presently basking in the emotionally limelight?

Neither, I don't vote anyone out of church. That mentality needs to go too many people have been hurt by it, and now that we are starting to see some progress in the CoGoP, let's not just swing the power to the other side and start repeating their sins. The bullied becoming the bully just doesn't work for me.

Instead let's drop the rules and quit trying to prove whose side is better and seek God. Let's disciple both sides so that they see God's work and will in both things, and so that they can minister one to another seeing each other's needs rather than just their own. When it comes time let's help one side to sit down and eat of the Word from the table God has laid before them, and when it's time we can also help the other side to break down emotional walls and experience God in new ways.

Both are vaild parts of our relationship, neither should take over and over power the other, and while yes in modern pentecostalism the emotional has done this, if you look back in history, it's went the other way as well, and the opposite extreme isn't good either.

Ministry shouldn't exclude people, nor invalidate their experiences with God, but should lift them up to grow and see that God has more than just that little bit they have experienced. Granted some of the super-emotional don't want to hear that, but then they probably wouldn't want me as their pastor either, in the same way I do have an emotional relationship with my savior, and see that as a vital part of the christian walk as well (though it is expressed in different ways)

I'm not saying I have the answer... I'm just telling you how I feel. It's annoying, in the least, when you would like to hear the Word of God taught, but one or two or six other ya ya sistas would rather manifest speaking in tongues. Who's right... I dunno... but I'm not down with it.

Yes, I have seen alot of things that are WAY out of order in that, and I am not supporting that, but let's not cast it all out because of a few immature christians who are only looking at their needs, and a quick rush with no substance to it.

[Pastor Bill]

Dr. Ron,

On that I agree, and you have to deal with the situation you are in, the way I pastor the church that I am in now, is NOTHING like the church I came from (I wasn't the pastor at that time, but feel the pastor was doing what was best for that church, and wouldn't have done much different) and when the Lord moves me to another church, it will be like no other I have pastored. It's about the people, and the needs they have, NOT a program or set of rules that we can roll out anywhere and they will work.

It takes seeking God for the situation you are in. The reason we have a 60 page report on D&R that still doesn't deal with the issue is because what is needed is dicernment, and God's leading, not a set of rules. Setting up a new set of rules won't fix things (may make things a little better in some ways) but they won't fix things.

If God has led you that way to deal with the situation you are now in, great, follow God and He will bless you, at the same time, what is best for your congregation may not work well for mine.

[Pastor Bill]

PG, I agree, there is a time and a place for both. I have been invited to preach in a Baptist church, did the Lord lead me to shout and run the isles? no, that would not have served Him nor would it have served the church. Does that mean I haven't been led to shout and run the isles, yes on occasion, and when God led it, it was neither out of order nor a hinderance.

I say freedom in worship must come with leading of the Holy Spirit, discipleship, accountability, and a servant's attitude. If those things are in place, you won't be out of order, and if their not you aren't in order whether you are shouting or silent.

[scooter]

Sounds like this could lead to the much needed redefinition of "A Good Service"

[Pastor Bill]

Of course, they can be used mutually. But if I had my choice of an emotional experience or a Word experience, I would choose the Word - hands down. I have watched TOO many people put their whole Christianity into how they FEEL and Feelings just don't always last. Our commitment to God lasts in the middle of whatever "feelings" we have. Yes, I believe in the gifts of the Spirit - all of them. I just don't believe that ALL of them happen to EVERYONE ALL of the time. AND, I believe that our church (and most other Pentecostal churches) have put WAY too much emphasis on one or two of the gifts. Personally, I would rather see manifestations of the fruits - rather than the gifts.

I would agree with you, and IF I had to choose, it would also be the Word, but the fact is we don't IF we are in obedience to God.

I believe emotion will come from our response to the Word (both written, and living) and I believe to be in order, the Word will be manifest within our emotion. If the two don't come together, you're just making noise. I Corinthians 13 says: "If I have not Love..." and that's not talking about a Hollywood sappy emotional Love, but it's talking about God, His will and His leading in our lives. If we have that, then our emotions will be directed properly, and in order. There is nothing I hate to see worse than a church that is so emotional that they leave Him out of it, and I actually have a person who has been led to our church that just can't accept it because we are not that way, and I will not allow us to go there. He is used to a shout every service, and he comes and visits sometimes, but can't understand why we don't fit his mold, yet wonders why his home church seems to be stuck in a rut and never grows spiritually, it's because they are more concerned with a shout than digging in to try and grow.

Now, all that having been said.....I think it is fine to get excited about being a Christian and excited about Worship. As long as it is in order. I also believe that emotional experiences can work in ministry when someone is hurting. Tears and hugs, etc. I am not downing that. I also believe in raising my hands in worship as a submission and surrender to God. However, when people are reserved about coming to our church because of the reputation of Pentecostals, I am concerned.

Right there is the key "As long as it is in order" Too many pentecostals are not in order, and that reputation does hurt us. God can move in those ways in order, but we have to obey and not run ahead of God in our flesh, but also not quench the spirit.

One of our new people brought her mother to church a couple of Sundays ago. When they pulled up at the church, her mother said "Amy, you didn't tell me this was a COGOP church!" And she didn't want to come in. Amy convinced her that there wouldn't be people running the aisles and acting crazy. She was pleasantly surprised after she finally came in ....and said she would be back. And she is even bringing HER parents now.

And that was God, if God brings someone like that to the church, He isn't going to lead someone to do something to run them off. That doesn't mean we should be so afraid of offending someone that we aren't free to worship, but it also means that we have to be sensitive to the spirit and following rather than trying to take the lead.

Now.....if I were to choose between the Word and emotion, I would rather choose the Word and keep this new convert. There is a time and a place for the other. Sunday morning with a church full of visitors is NOT the time - unless God just won't have it any other way. Our church does not quench the Spirit - we are listening very carefully to the Spirit. That is why we are gaining new members.

And that's great to hear. If we're listening carefully to the Spirit, and not quenching the Spirit, God will move as needed, whether that is in a shout, or in silence, whether that is in laughter or in tears He knows what we need, and He should be the one in control. Dr. Ron stated it best when he said "It's not about me" honestly that is the main focus of a message I have had on my heart for next weekend, It's not about me, it's got to be about Him, and His work.

[Pastor Bill]

Sounds like this could lead to the much needed redefinition of "A Good Service"

I agree

If it's measured by the volume, length or how much we liked it, that means nothing. I want to know what God got done, His purposes are more important than our own.