oops, my bad. I am sorry for going so far out there. Guess I shouldn't have replied in the first place; I just joined COGOP as a member this year!doris wrote:I'm answering the question, Why did you leave? This thread has traveled awhile since it started...
Why did you leave?
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RamboPreacher
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dolfan
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Poimen wrote:Now, you know I respect you and have a high regard for you. But, I'm going to have to say I'm "exhibit A" to the contrary, IF (and big "if") you mean by "taught against" a general rejection of the manifestations as being normative in worship service as we experience it here today.
And I also have a profound respect and appreciation for you.
By "taught against" I am referring to a denial of the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit -- cessasionism. I am not referring specifcally to ( for or against) their place in a worship service.
Perhaps a rephrase would be better? ... any believer who accepts the baptsim of the Holy Ghost as a subsequent experience to salvation and accepts the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit (per 1 Cor. 12) as a normative/continuing experience could not generally be "satisfied" in a church or fellowship where an opposite view was held.
I'll defer to that thought since I can't speak for everyone who has left a fellowship as you describe to one that holds a cessationist view. I can only speak for me. And, before we start too much of a mutual admiration society, let me get the last word in that I like you, too.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
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Sunflowertabi
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I don't know about TGOG because I am not part of that church.The reading and research I have been doing on COGOP is that Desisions were made by the Holt Ghost not man.I feel also from research that COGOP started going the wrong direction in early90's.It has not just come to pass all at once it has crep it's way into the hearts of people so they will be more apt to except it.I can not say this for all But the ones who live near us I can say that for all of them.
He gives me water from the well
Sunflowertabi wrote:I don't know about TGOG because I am not part of that church.The reading and research I have been doing on COGOP is that Desisions were made by the Holt Ghost not man.I feel also from research that COGOP started going the wrong direction in early90's.It has not just come to pass all at once it has crep it's way into the hearts of people so they will be more apt to except it.I can not say this for all But the ones who live near us I can say that for all of them.
Sunflower where are you getting your research material and were you at the last assembly and what is your age so I can gain a perspective of your cogop assembly experience
Speaking the truth as I know it.
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Sunflowertabi
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Sunflowertabi wrote:If you say the leadership was wrong in their interpriting scripture then you are calling the Holy Ghost a liar,because back in the day that is how the church was run.By the Holy Ghost.Not now it's what feels good and I beleive from what I saw.Majority rules.It was actually disturbing.The Church has to have government that is lead by the Holy Ghost or it will never work.
Response: Get some help.
What we need here is a good revival! lol
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dolfan
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Sunflowertabi:
I think I understand you more now. You're 27 years old, you've got a history of having turned your life away from following God, and you've turned back to following Him. You've read and watched what you've been given to read and watch. Like the rest of us, you are slowly getting your arms around the truth about God and seeking to live for Him according to what you've learned and how you've learned it.
Whether you are committed to the death, so to speak, to the General Assembly's interpretation of Scripture, the published works of entrenched COGOP authors, etc., remains to be seen since you are still among the living. Years ago, when I was preparing to seek licensure as COGOP evangelist, I took the old "Body of Christ" course. The author asked that the student lay aside every preconception and what he/she had known prior to seeing the coursework, and to let the course speak clearly through whatever filters one might have had. As alarmed as I was at that request, I complied, since I believed that what I was going to read was true. It wasn't a big step since I was already there.
It is not unfair to your belief system, or mine, or anyone else's for that matter, to reach a point where to test the truth of what I know, I lay aside what I've learned, understood and accepted. I come fresh to the table of the Lord. The way I've packed the truth of Christ is always rearranged by the Master. Some ideas are thrown out, some are simply removed, refolded and put carefully back in a better place, and some yet are left right where they are.
This happens continually to me on many levels. It once troubled me because I felt that I needed a set of nailed-down truths that wouldn't move. But, the Lord showed me that truth is a Person, not a set of ideas, rules or principles. And, He also showed me that He was nailed down, but to live again meant that there had to be movement. Life is change. Change is constant. Once I learned that I may depend on Him and need not depend on whether "truth" as I'd learned and known it so far is hard, unshakeable ground, I realized that I really was interacting with the God of all truth and life. So, as He rearranges my heart and mind through His Word, His Spirit, my life in the body of Christ in my local church, everyday experiences, etc., I'm not upset by the fact of changes in my perspective and understanding. Those changes do not threaten the truth, because Truth is a Person, not my idea of Him and how He works.
To disagree with you or argue with you point-for-point on your statements is not going to help you. It may boost my ego for scoring what I think are points, but that's self-serving hogwash. Someone else may do it without that baggage. I can't. That may be a cop-out on my part, but I get squeezed out of the tube without a lot of pressure when I read what you say. It won't profit anyone for me to go there. I'm trying to be honest with you, and I don't know how much or when those times of being washed over by the water of the Word will effect change in you.
I do pray that the Lord will guide your thoughts and how you think them.
I think I understand you more now. You're 27 years old, you've got a history of having turned your life away from following God, and you've turned back to following Him. You've read and watched what you've been given to read and watch. Like the rest of us, you are slowly getting your arms around the truth about God and seeking to live for Him according to what you've learned and how you've learned it.
Whether you are committed to the death, so to speak, to the General Assembly's interpretation of Scripture, the published works of entrenched COGOP authors, etc., remains to be seen since you are still among the living. Years ago, when I was preparing to seek licensure as COGOP evangelist, I took the old "Body of Christ" course. The author asked that the student lay aside every preconception and what he/she had known prior to seeing the coursework, and to let the course speak clearly through whatever filters one might have had. As alarmed as I was at that request, I complied, since I believed that what I was going to read was true. It wasn't a big step since I was already there.
It is not unfair to your belief system, or mine, or anyone else's for that matter, to reach a point where to test the truth of what I know, I lay aside what I've learned, understood and accepted. I come fresh to the table of the Lord. The way I've packed the truth of Christ is always rearranged by the Master. Some ideas are thrown out, some are simply removed, refolded and put carefully back in a better place, and some yet are left right where they are.
This happens continually to me on many levels. It once troubled me because I felt that I needed a set of nailed-down truths that wouldn't move. But, the Lord showed me that truth is a Person, not a set of ideas, rules or principles. And, He also showed me that He was nailed down, but to live again meant that there had to be movement. Life is change. Change is constant. Once I learned that I may depend on Him and need not depend on whether "truth" as I'd learned and known it so far is hard, unshakeable ground, I realized that I really was interacting with the God of all truth and life. So, as He rearranges my heart and mind through His Word, His Spirit, my life in the body of Christ in my local church, everyday experiences, etc., I'm not upset by the fact of changes in my perspective and understanding. Those changes do not threaten the truth, because Truth is a Person, not my idea of Him and how He works.
To disagree with you or argue with you point-for-point on your statements is not going to help you. It may boost my ego for scoring what I think are points, but that's self-serving hogwash. Someone else may do it without that baggage. I can't. That may be a cop-out on my part, but I get squeezed out of the tube without a lot of pressure when I read what you say. It won't profit anyone for me to go there. I'm trying to be honest with you, and I don't know how much or when those times of being washed over by the water of the Word will effect change in you.
I do pray that the Lord will guide your thoughts and how you think them.
Human government bears the same relation to hell as the church bears to heaven. (David Lipscomb, On Civil Government, 72).
Why did you leave
Full quiver,
Now you've got all kinds of people wanting to attend that church to see the show. So go ahead and give everyone the address.LOL
Now you've got all kinds of people wanting to attend that church to see the show. So go ahead and give everyone the address.LOL
Dr. Ron
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Pastor Bill
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Re: Why did you leave
Dr. Ron,
I find that we always seem to start on opposite sides of an issue, and the more discussion we end up coing right in line. I really appriciate that, you make me really think hard on these things, and most of the time we aren't far off in our beliefs, just coming at them from very different perspectives.
I am fairly new to pentecostal churches (13 years) and I have seen the abuse you talk about, and it sickens me, but I guess my view of the CoGoP & CoG hasn't been that. I thought about this some this weekend after having spent some time with friends who have been in the CoGoP for years and we talked about some of the problems, then I visited my parent's CoGoP on Sunday (Service a different time than ours) to hear my district overseer preach a message on exactly what we had been discussing, the importance of the Word over the emotion, the need for the Word over and above all else, and putting our focus back on the Word.
Many of you have seen the bad side of the CoGoP, and that's rough, many have chosen to leave due to it, some to stay in spite of it, but I have come in, and what I have seen, for the most part all I have seen, is progress. Now that may be a limited view, but I sure like it. The problems you have described have not effected my ministry, nor my parents who attend another CoGoP in my area. I am currently looking at the possibility of leaving the church I am in, and one of two other CoGoPs in my area, either one, I will not see these problems.
Like I said my view may be limited, and may be more hopeful than the situation warrants, but keep in mind that over the years it's easy to get a jaded perspective too. Things are improving at least in some areas, and those of us still here, will continue to keep seeking God and pushing things in His direction.
I find that we always seem to start on opposite sides of an issue, and the more discussion we end up coing right in line. I really appriciate that, you make me really think hard on these things, and most of the time we aren't far off in our beliefs, just coming at them from very different perspectives.
I am fairly new to pentecostal churches (13 years) and I have seen the abuse you talk about, and it sickens me, but I guess my view of the CoGoP & CoG hasn't been that. I thought about this some this weekend after having spent some time with friends who have been in the CoGoP for years and we talked about some of the problems, then I visited my parent's CoGoP on Sunday (Service a different time than ours) to hear my district overseer preach a message on exactly what we had been discussing, the importance of the Word over the emotion, the need for the Word over and above all else, and putting our focus back on the Word.
Many of you have seen the bad side of the CoGoP, and that's rough, many have chosen to leave due to it, some to stay in spite of it, but I have come in, and what I have seen, for the most part all I have seen, is progress. Now that may be a limited view, but I sure like it. The problems you have described have not effected my ministry, nor my parents who attend another CoGoP in my area. I am currently looking at the possibility of leaving the church I am in, and one of two other CoGoPs in my area, either one, I will not see these problems.
Like I said my view may be limited, and may be more hopeful than the situation warrants, but keep in mind that over the years it's easy to get a jaded perspective too. Things are improving at least in some areas, and those of us still here, will continue to keep seeking God and pushing things in His direction.
Why did you leave
Pastor Bill,
Thanks for the last post. I admit that I like to make people think and dig. I had to after many years of accepting what was laid before me.
The issues I had with COGOP had to do with integrity of the individuals I dealt with. I dislike double standard. I was in a postition that was forcing me to take that stand. I would not.
I left for the benefit of the organization as much as for my benefit. I felt that I was no longer able to do what I said I would do on my minister's license and so I left. I asked for nothing. I did not try to take property, assets, or money. I left with nothing.
God has blessed my decision. I believe I am probably doing more good for the organization by being out of it than in it. I am glad for young men like you who do not have the baggage of the past and see something I cannot see at all. You believe you see change. I pray you are right. I am far enough removed from it now that I see everything in a different light.
I wish you well. A word of advice. The next church you accept. Plant your feet there and buy a burial plot. The people need to know that you are not a ladder climber and want to minister to them and their community. You will be blessed by doing this. Plan to retire from your next location.
I have grown to love you my friend. Anything I can do to help, let me know. Believe it or not, I love the organization more than anyone can ever know.
Thanks for the last post. I admit that I like to make people think and dig. I had to after many years of accepting what was laid before me.
The issues I had with COGOP had to do with integrity of the individuals I dealt with. I dislike double standard. I was in a postition that was forcing me to take that stand. I would not.
I left for the benefit of the organization as much as for my benefit. I felt that I was no longer able to do what I said I would do on my minister's license and so I left. I asked for nothing. I did not try to take property, assets, or money. I left with nothing.
God has blessed my decision. I believe I am probably doing more good for the organization by being out of it than in it. I am glad for young men like you who do not have the baggage of the past and see something I cannot see at all. You believe you see change. I pray you are right. I am far enough removed from it now that I see everything in a different light.
I wish you well. A word of advice. The next church you accept. Plant your feet there and buy a burial plot. The people need to know that you are not a ladder climber and want to minister to them and their community. You will be blessed by doing this. Plan to retire from your next location.
I have grown to love you my friend. Anything I can do to help, let me know. Believe it or not, I love the organization more than anyone can ever know.
Dr. Ron
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Pastor Bill
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Honestly I thought I would be at my current church forever, but God changed things. Either church I end up in will put me farther from my family, and I can honestly say these aren't my desire. One church I am really feeling led towards, the other is basically needing a pastor, and the overseer would like for me to take it if the first one does not work out. Either way, God had me where I am now for a season and that season has ended. I didn't look for it to happen, but it has become apparent it has. I talked to the church last Sunday about it, and that was hard. I will be leaving some good people, and close relationships, but I know this is God's time.
I appriciate your prayers brother, God is the one in control, and even the times we seem to come against one another, our discussions have always been a blessing.
I appriciate your prayers brother, God is the one in control, and even the times we seem to come against one another, our discussions have always been a blessing.
Re: back at ya
Pastor Gary wrote:Years ago -- 1974? -- I was in a Columbus Georgia auditorium listening to David Wilkerson preach and give an invitation; a no-doubt sincere woman in the upper balcony started speaking out in tongues very loudly, breaking the silence. Wilkerson rebuked her and told her she was out of order and was distracting from what the Spirit was speaking to the hearts of those under conviction. I was young, and was SHOCKED that he had the audacity to "tell the Holy Ghost to be quiet." But he wasn't -- he was telling that woman that she should pray silently, in tongues if she felt so led, but not disrupt by allowing her emotions and flesh to bring attention to herself. As a Pastor, I have had occasion to shut down fleshly junk that was out of order, and would do so again.
I've only seen that happen once in a cogop... and a VISITING preacher did it! lol
I was at a cogop youth conference (I was an adult with the youth group)... in Niagra/New York area, I think...
Anyway, Tyrone-somebody from the Brooklyn Tabernacle was there to preach (it was a nice treat!) and a woman would NOT quit yelping in tongues. EVERYBODY was watching her, completely aware it was out of order. He did tell her to knock it off eventually, in appropriate words, of course.
Personally, I think it ought to be acceptable protocol to just hurl the bottle of annointing oil - bottle and all -- at them when they're lost in their own little world like that. After all, if they're "in the Spirit," the bottle smacking against their noggin' won't injure them, right?
Neutiquam erro
dalebert wrote:After all, if they're "in the Spirit," the bottle smacking against their noggin' won't injure them, right?
Amydawn....if they are "in the spirit" what spirit would u be in?....
exactly!
Reminds me of the time dad told me about... years ago.... two men were running (you know them - the 'runners') laps around the inside of the church, came around to the front, and smacked into each other with full force right in front of the pulpit.
Hey, we were just trying to figure out which one of them wasn't really "in" the spirit.... and I actually concluded, it appeared neither was.
The storel of the morey is:
Never run opposing directions with your eyes closed.
Neutiquam erro
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