Speaking in Tongues

[justsam]

I believe that there is a difference between salvation and indwelling, That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not present or active in a person's life prior to indwelling, nor does it place indwelling as a second or higher level of Christian.

Christ told the disciples to "go and wait in Jerusalum" (Acts 1 unless we consider them unsaved at this point, it seems there was something else He wanted them to have prior to ministry. He indicated they would receive power to be witnesses (ministers)

What Biblical basis do you have for stating that the disciples were not "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit prior to pentecost? Joh 20:22 says: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." Do you beleive that they did not receive the Holy Ghost at this time?

I am not aware of any passage of scripture that equates the baptism in the Holy Ghost with being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If there are any, please share them.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

[dolfan]

Playing off the point by Pastor Bill and Kenya, (and assuming I am Pentecostal here so you don't think I'm coming from a skeptic's viewpoint), how has speaking in tongues helped you in practical ways to minister to the lost? Can you give examples? (This is not a bait to argue. I really want to know.)

[RamboPreacher]

Some do receive the indwelling at the time of conversion, others it is later, but it should mark a step out of pew sitting and into service. I don't believe it is neccesary for salvation, and I don't believe it makes someone more of a Christian or a higher level Christian or anything like that, it's just a source of power to guide, lead and empower ministry.

I like that point. But do you think that someone can have this power and indwelling for service without ever speaking in tongues?

I also like and agree with the point made. as to your question, I say yes. since I believe that speaking in tongues as "an" (not "the") evidence of the indwelling and leading to service.

[Pastor Bill]

Kenya,

That's a hard one for me, remember I grew up in churches that didn't believe in tongues. God dropped me in the middle of a pentecostal church and I had to deal with it (at the time I could have given you a list of verses saying it was wrong ) I had to get over my tradition quick because I could feel God's presence and knew it was me that had to change.

I went home, studied and prayed, then I received, and I spoke in tongues that same night in my room, since then was taught that was the way it happens.

Scripturally tongues seems to accompany every indwelling shown in Acts so the pattern is there, but I also can't see anywhere that it is clearly stated that it has to be that way.

On the other hand, God does have a purpose for tongues, and it's more than just messages and interpretations (in my experience/opinion those are meant to be more rare to emphasis or instruct on a point not an everyday occurance. This is times when God speaks directly, and although I have been used in both speaking and interpretting, it scares me in alot of ways, because that is not a time to be in the flesh or pretending, you better be saying exactly what God wants and getting yourself out of the way.)

Paul says in I Corinthians 14:4 that "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself" and sometimes we do need that uplifting and edification. Not in a public or showy way, but personally, and whether that comes at home in personal prayer time, or at an altar, it is personal between you and God. Many look at it as emotional fluff that is not needed, but God did create us as emotional creatures too, and our relationship with Him should be emotional as well, as long as it's more than just that.

I know we have seen excesses in the pentecostal church, but I have been in other churches as well and seen the same thing, it's not about how you express the emotion, but the lack of any depth behind it. Joey preached to the kids last night about turning our Christianity on and off, being a christian when it fits, but keeping the rest of our lives separate. We all know that isn't spiritually healthy, it's no different than a husband or wife turning off their "Married Life" in that case it's called adultry. If we think we can turn it on and off and get by, we may have the emotions, but there is no depth of committment or relationship there, so even the emotion is false, and that happens with or without tongues.

[Pastor Bill]

I believe that there is a difference between salvation and indwelling, That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is not present or active in a person's life prior to indwelling, nor does it place indwelling as a second or higher level of Christian.

Christ told the disciples to "go and wait in Jerusalum" (Acts 1 unless we consider them unsaved at this point, it seems there was something else He wanted them to have prior to ministry. He indicated they would receive power to be witnesses (ministers)

What Biblical basis do you have for stating that the disciples were not "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit prior to pentecost? Joh 20:22 says: "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost." Do you beleive that they did not receive the Holy Ghost at this time?

I am not aware of any passage of scripture that equates the baptism in the Holy Ghost with being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. If there are any, please share them.

God Bless You- Sam Smith

Christ told them in Acts 1 to go and wait for it, and after receiving it, then they could go out to minister.

As I stated before I believe there is a difference in the receiving/filling and baptism. Many even in the old testament were filled with the spirit, and in most cases it even seemed to be temporary thing. One example I Samuel 10:10 the Spirit of God came upon Saul. Yet Christ later says "for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you" (John 16:7) and as you stated in chapter 20 they received the spirit. The only way I have been able to reconcile these is that there is a difference between the spirit moving on a person (received/came upon) and being baptised in the spirit. I do not feel that a person has to receive the baptism in order to be saved, or even to be used by God, but that it is a power given to those stepping out into ministry, both for their leading, edification and empowerment.

[Kenya]

how has speaking in tongues helped you in practical ways to minister to the lost? Can you give examples?

I have never been in a service where I have witnessed tongues ministering to the lost. This is the whole reason for my question. There was a purpose on the Day of Pentecost that brought about new converts. The services I have been in have always either 1) been an extremely emotional service with sometimes orderly and sometimes disorderly displays of tongues 2) A message and interpretation given for the benefit of believers in the congregation 3) An individual praying to themselves

And here's a bombshell....I have never spoken in tongues. I sought it (sincerely) for many years in youth camp services (even tried the Glory, glory, glory method once) and always felt like a second rate Christian because God never gave me that gift. I have searched my heart and the scriptures and no longer feel like a second rate Christian. I basically believe per Paul's writing that tongues is only one of many gifts that come with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that God doesn't give every gift to every believer. I believe that God uses me in ministry as much as my tongues speaking fellow Christians. I believe that the Holy Spirit is in complete control of my life and most of my actions. I do get "in the flesh" from time to time - but don't we all. I try to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit and personally believe that more emphasis should be put on the fruits that the gifts because the most important gift we can give or receive is God's love through our witness by our actions.

[Pastor Bill]

Playing off the point by Pastor Bill and Kenya, (and assuming I am Pentecostal here so you don't think I'm coming from a skeptic's viewpoint), how has speaking in tongues helped you in practical ways to minister to the lost? Can you give examples? (This is not a bait to argue. I really want to know.)

OK, I may not have been clear, I believe the baptism of the Holy Spirit is to give power to minister, not specifically the gift of tongues. Tongues is a sign (I Corinthians 14:22), and edifies the speaker not the church(I Corinthians 14:4) So I don't think it is as much for ministry. Paul even encourages in verse 5 of that same chapter encourages that he would prefer that all spoke in tongues, but even more would like to see them excel past that into gifts for ministry.

I do believe tongues has it's place, and is a beneficial part of our Christian lives, but it's not a huge ministry tool nor is it the ultimate goal for Christians to reach towards, it's just a small thing that get's alot of attention.

[Kenya]

I have another point I want to add to this discussion. I first began to really look at this issue after my children went to youth camp a few years ago. My daughter took a Baptist friend with her. We picked them up on the last day and my two daughters immediately got into an argument about which one of them actually spoke in tongues and got slain in the spirit. Keep in mind that my girls don't argue a lot like most siblings. I settled the argument and questioned them about what else they learned at camp. The only other thing they remembered was learning a song set to the tune of the "chicken song" only the words were changed to "I speak in tongues".

This year at camp showed me that not much has changed in senior camp since I went back in the 80's. The emphasis was put on the displays at the evening services. Denine's Baptist friend disassociated herself with us for several years. She has just now started coming back around to our house.

[dolfan]

Kenya, thanks for that honesty. It is hard to feel up to Christian par in any organization where the most common "normal" is not your experience. I used to get that same kind of feeling you described, too, for a while. Now, I get a different kind of comparison sickness --- I look at me and my self-centeredness and look at my brothers and sisters in prison for their faith, tortured for sharing the good news, and I look at so many others who are doing practical things to help the lost and the literally-beaten and starved redeemed. I'm doing nothing by comparison.

If I had any indication that tongues or any other spiritual gift would do "it" to move me across that gap between me and where I want to be (sorry, Pure Prairie League) I'd say, "Lay it on me." The fact is, though, He doesn't work that way. I'm seeing more and more that real Christianity is life with open arms, an overflowing heart and service-sore feet, hands and knees --- none of which are possible, of course, in the Jesus kind of way without a relationship with Him. The gifts are given as we live that way, and they unwrap in unexpected ways and times. The gifts are dynamic and often unpredictable, but unfailing and always identifiable as a God-thing.

Paul said that all gifts mean zero without love. I think the converse is true --- with love, the smallest of gifts in a believer's life does much for the benefit of those he/she serves. All growth happens in little steps. Little drops of heaven, spiritual gifts working through you, Joey, Pastor Bill, and the rest of your church, raining into the lives of others, are enough. If God wants to pour rain, He can. Most of the time, though, a faith walk requires one step and "just enough God" (so to speak) to make that step only, and waiting patiently with Him for the next one. There's no mystic or momentousness about it. It is just everyday working, living and doing His stuff for people that need to know Him.

[Pastor Bill]

I hate to hear that, Junior camp was nothing like that, but I have not been with the older group. a couple of youth from senior camp came and helped out with Junior camp, and none of them seemed that focused on signs, but one thing I did notice is that the camp experience is very different depending on who is working, My great-niece was with us that week, and they did alot of extra stuff in the cabins outside of what was scheduled (crafts and things) be careful not to judge too quickly what may have been one "guide" pushing more than the whole camp. Plus kids remember what their focus is on, Daniel's main memories of camp are swimming and water wars, while my g-niece did alot with drama and singing.

Personally I don't know much about KY Senior camp, other than some of the kids that came out of it to help us with Junior and they seemed well grounded. Maybe TC or others here who have been involved with KY camps more than me might shed some light on things.

[Kenya]

Bill, I am not knocking all youth camps. And I am sure there is a big difference in the younger camps than the senior camp. In fact, if there would have been time to arrange it, I would have suggested Makenzie possibly go with you and Daniel this year. Amy could have used the break and it might have been really good for Makenzie.

After this last experience at camp, Joey and Marchetta and I sat down and had a long heart to heart talk with the kids in the youth group. They all felt this "pressure" and did not want to go back to church camp. That was when our "Youth Retreats" were birthed and have been beneficial for our group. They don't hesitate to invite other kids to our church meetings or retreats like they did youth camp.

Btw, I am not bitter. Just protective of those 15-20 kids that call me mom.....

[Pastor Bill]

Oh I know Kenya, and honestly if that is what is happening at Senior camp, then we need to pray for a change there not just so that our kids can go to camp, but there are others that don't have the support at home to know how to deal with it.

[Kenya]

Now, back to the topic at hand, dolfan asked a good question. Anyone have any good answers to his question: "how has speaking in tongues helped you in practical ways to minister to the lost? Can you give examples?"

[Who new]

Manifestations of the Holy Spirit are not just speaking in tongues. If we can't handle his presence to speak in tongues then we aren't handling his presence in interpreting tongues, prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning spirits, gifts of faith, miracles, healings...

All these can and are misused. Without wisdom, discipline and good experience we can mess them up. That does'nt invalidate them. It challenges us to handle them better. I actually believe that tongues are introductory spiritual experience. It's embarrassing to think that most of us haven't even gotten past the introduction. But that's where we are.

[Brenda]

"how has speaking in tongues helped you in practical ways to minister to the lost?

If I may reinterrate a familiar church service scripture here.
1 Cor.14:22-25

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believeth not but for them which believe.
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers,will they not say that ye are mad?
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that [believeth not, or one unlearned], he is convinced of all, he is judge of all:
And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Having the indwelling of the Holy Ghost gives you boldness for service. I believe he brings to remembrace to you of what the word says and the word can be used to help minister to that individual that you are talking to.

But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. St. John 14:26


Tongues are a sign to the unbeliever and an aid to the believer.