Our cast of "characters"

[Pastor Gary]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, PG, but you're not asking if we think Gerald should be banned are you?

It is not a referendum on Gerald --- it is a general question to determine how you feel about the general concept of loose moderation and few bans.

[justsam]

I had an interesting conversation with a Lutheran Pastor a couple of years ago at a pastor's luncheon. He stated that when he began his minsitry, he had a large policy manual covering every situation he could think of. As he spent more time in ministry, he felt that he needed to operate more in grace practically as well as theologically. It really got me to thinking about what it means to live in grace and by faith not just in relation to our salvation but in every day life.

My point is this: Jude2 is a grace based community. There aren't a lot of rules and regulations. It is up to each of us to govern our own behavior, and consequently, the good the bad and the ugly all come out. We have the kind of conversations and disagreements that are usually reserved for family members when no outsiders are present. I get a lot of criticism for the things that I say and the way that I say them; but most of the critics seem ironically unaware of how hurtful, condemning and judgemental they are being when the criticize me personally, and not the content of my posts. Should my posts be regulated away? Should Theirs?

It's no secret that Gerald and I rarely work and play well together. But realistically, our points of view are not really that far apart. Besides a minor (and I do mean minor) difference in our understanding of how faith is applied practically in the life of a believer, I'm not sure what else we substantially disagree about. The problem is we fight like brothers- real brothers. I can't get along with my natural brother either. And as far as I can tell, neither can he. And aren't we really asking the question- can't pastor Gary use the law to force people to behave a certain way or get lost so that they will act nicer than they really are when they let their guard down? But is that the spirit of grace? What would happen to the spirit of grace on Jude2 if Pastor Gary did what he's been asked?

Our churches are full of people who are constantly pretending to be nicer, holier, more loving and spiritual than they really are. Because we have chosen to live by the law in church instead of grace. Can't we have one place where we can be ourselves, even if it is embarassing and unpleasant at times? In the end, God has chosen to extend grace to us in the hope that it will transform us, and He has warned us against judging his servants and doubting about whether or not His ways will ultimately be effective ( Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.)

I vote for trusting God and and His grace in this situation.


God Bless You- Sam Smith

[THE RAzEr]

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,…
William Shakespeare - "As You Like IT"

Lately I have been wrestling with a series of very long, detailed, emails of complaint. They pretty much center on one subject: a perception that I show great favoritism toward certain posters. Okay ONE poster: Gerald Creasy.

Perhaps I need to get philosophical.

Anybody here ever watch wrestling? They have a cast of characters including good guys, bad guys, showboats, gimmicks, etc. It is not the athletic competition of "rasslin" that draws a crowd, but the interaction of the cast of characters, including the ones you like to BOO.

Message boards are much the same, IMHO. The internet is littered with the ghosts of happy-talk boards and "everybody-always-be-sweet" forums. Here's a sad truth; none of really enjoy those kinds of boards longer than a few days. We LIKE a little give-and-take. We enjoy loosely controlled confrontation. We keep coming back for more when the taste of blood is in the water. Think what you will -- that it is our base nature, that it shouldn't be that way -- but that is the truth.

The reason Jude2 has survived and grown while others have withered and died is because we have allowed heroes and villians, sweet people and grouches, the gentle and the abrupt. At various times in my tenure here I have had similar series of complaints about other regulars... villains come and go, heroes rise and fall.

Tell me what you think.

Hey why not have a section where people who want to call names, and degrade ministries of the living and the dead can do it. Oh, we do have a doctrinal section, sorry. Maybe we could call it Flame Wars, Dung Eating Wars or Star Wars.

Oh, I know you didn't asked, but DON"T BAN GERALD!

Then again, it's your board.

Ray

[Pastor Gary]

Hey why not have a section where people who want to call names, and degrade ministries of the living and the dead can do it. Oh, we do have a doctrinal section, sorry. Maybe we could call it Flame Wars, Dung Eating Wars or Star Wars.

Well, there ya have it.

[Shellie]

Tim wrote:

But I see them just as they are,
And they see me as I am not.
My actions are not as they say, to rule the day;
I want to play, and they to beat me.

Now let me get this straight so that I don't misunderstand you. You see us as we are, but we are wrong in our view of you?

You just want casual harmless play and we are out to get you?

I think maybe it is you who sees you not.

For I have a rival, one formidable enemy,
Not the one called Shellie, not the one called Creasy.

I think it was the use of my name that pulled me out of quietness. You see, I have done very little posting since your return simply because you feel the desire to gnash at me. You have tried to make me look like the aggressor and it simply wasn't so this time. Maybe in the past, but not this time.

Why was my name even mentioned here, Tim? If you don't want to play with me, don't call me out.

You truly do not see yourself as you truly are. Vande, Gerald, scooter, me et al can at least admit we sometimes struggle with being gracious, but you don't even see the lack of graciousness in your posts to those that disagree with you.

How many times have you lashed out with a verbal stake only to come back and delete it? Yes, I have seen a few of the posts before you erased them.

You are no different than any that you accuse here. Perhaps if you were, I'd be willing to give you an ear.

[Mike Vande]

Tim,
I included you in the "ought to be banned" list not because I do not see you as you "am", but rather because I DO see you as you "am", which is to say an unashamed lightning rod for controversy. You know good an well when you post one of your politically or theologically "centrist" viewpoints (which by the way, are only "centrist" in the eyes of those who have moved the line between politically/ theologically conservative and lliberal drastically to the left in the last few years) that you are going to attract criticism, and you seem to enjoy it. It has become obvious that you like crossing swords with those who disagree with you. And in that, you are no different from me, Scooter, Pastor Sam, Shellie, Gerald, even on occasion Pastor Gary, and a whole load of others.
Welcome to the club, Tim. You have become one of the troublemakers around here. You are sneakier about it than some, but you are right there with the rest of us, dude.

[scooter]

Well Glory!

I don't know whether to break out and sing "Can you feel the love" or "Oh Lord it's hard to be humble"!

[MrDanger]

I like the people just the way they are. Do I wish that some more grace would be shown at times....sure, but if I am going to be spending eternity with 'em, I might as well learn to enjoy them now.

As far as Gerald, who would make me laugh at the fact people don't catch sarcasm and wit if someone would rid this board of him?

[Jennifer Smith]

Hey why not have a section where people who want to call names, and degrade ministries of the living and the dead can do it.

PG, I haven't been here much in a while, but would it be all right if I comment? The fact is this (the above) is what upset me the most when I was here. Maybe, it's not necessary to ban anyone but perhaps give instruction or warnings here and there to rein in when people start to get out of hand. (Maybe that is already done? ) It's embarrassing when people get rude and personal at times- but also, the doctrinal issues and attacks on ministries are what are hardest for me. So, okay, I just won't go on that forum! But, I'm still concerned about getting involved in conflict. Also have felt that popular opinion swayed what was "okay" to post a bit. In other words if the viewpoint were pop here then anything goes, does that make sense? I'm not trying to insult anyone.. I'm glad the board is still here and going strong! And we do like Gerald although we wish he would be a bit tamer at times. We aptly named our cat after him, after all.

[Shellie]

Gosh, I knew when I wrote that verse someone was going to take it seriously, so why did I leave it in there? Shellie, I was being facetious. I didn't mean it. It was like, "Yeah, everyone sees me wrongly, but I see everyone correctly. Poor, pitiful me." I think part of the problem--but only part, mind you--is that our motives are sometimes mistaken AND we mistake the motives of others. I was playing off of that.

OK.

This post almost makes me believe we have an honest personality conflict. Yes, I have noticed that you have been leaving me alone, and I have even told a couple of people that I appreciated you for it. And I do. Thank you very much.

It is not that I have tried to leave you alone. I disagree with you on most matters. I just don't have the desire to defend myself against untrue rantings which is what happened the last time you and I had any dealings.

You are right, I shouldn't have mentioned you. You asked why, so I'll tell you. Because I thought that you were refering to me in your earlier post in this thread, and because I think that most people know that you have a low opinion of me.

It is not you I have a low opinion of but your ideas.

Again, I was playing off of that, and I should have left you completely out of it. Please forgive me. (And please jot it down in your record book that I apologized.)

OK

Again, this almost leads me to believe that we have an honest personality conflict.

No, not really. You just don't like me. You have stated that yourself. I don't dislike you. I just dislike the way you reprimand others for behavior that you yourself post by.

But there is something in how I come off that somehow makes you and maybe others completely fail to register my apologies and confessions. I'm not sure what I can do about that. I'm honestly befuddled.

It is because in one breath you apologize and in the next you assault again. Sorry can sometimes be a word to whitewash the conflict and make it go away. If sorry does not become action the result is that sorry is simply reduced to a word.

There is a lot of bait that I have not taken. Although, I do appreciate and have noticed that not only you but also Gerald and Vande have been leaving me alone. And Scooter recently let up when I asked him to.

You say you want to be left alone, yet you post things that you know will antagonize. Why?

Shellie, when I delete something, it means that I recognize that I shouldn't have said it. Isn't that better than not recognizing it? Isn't it better than leaving it there? Isn't there some credit due me for taking advantage of the delete button in hopes that it will be gone before the recipient sees it? Why are things that I delete being held against me? I mean, at least take away seventy percent of the demerit.

Yes, but shouldn't the need to delete be lessening as we grow?

I don't know what to say, Shellie. I'm no different, am I? None? Not at all? Just as bad? Maybe even worse? I don't know what to say. I don't know what to do. Except, okay, God help me never to mention your name again, or even to refer to you obliquely unless I am speaking directly to you with respect.

I have yet to hear you speak to me in respect in all the years I've "known" you. Your dislike of me is evident regardless of the good I do post from time to time.

Shellie, I'm truly sorry for all of this. We seem to be like oil and water. And I am truly sorry about that. Yes, let's try to stay out of each other's way, and please forgive me for mentioning you.

Oil and water are both necessities if used properly.

So, you think the answer is to stay out of one another's way? I find that the easy way out. You can't share a bathroom in the same house without bumping into one another. Seems that you would just have to learn to appreciate that you can't make the other person what you want them to be and to appreciate them for the good that is in them.

[dolfan]

The marketplace of ideas is its own best police.

[Blended]

Gerald’s post of late show that he has mellowed some in his old age

I have been at times in the crosshairs of his attacks but If I could not handle it I would not have engaged.

Let it all stand it is what makes Jude 2 Jude 2

[Pastor Bill]

Things get heated sometimes, and I don't care for personal attacks, but sometimes that's all that people have

Honestly I have conflicted with many on here (I really not that hard of a person to get along with) and the conflicts have served me well. I first found this board (actually that-other-forum-that-shall-remain-nameless) when I first started pastoring, and I have grown alot in that time, and I attribute alot of it to discussions here.

I have had my ideas and beliefs challenged, on some things, I feel I stand stronger having had to defend them, on others, I have found myself in error and have grown from there.

To be 100% honest, I would say I have probably learned more and grown more from some of the very heated discussions, and from butting heads with some of the ones who are as stubborn as I am (you know who you are! ).

We could calm things down here, but I don't think it would add to the community, and I think it would detract from things as well.

Remember this board isn't your Sunday morning SS class discussion situation, there are deeper issues and larger attitudes here than in other arenas, I doubt most of us are as blunt or in your face in other situations, because it wouldn't be appropriate, but at the same time just because we are Christians doesn't mean the manners and attitudes have to be the same as we would sitting down the pew from sister what's-her-name in a peaceful church setting.

This is a part of the body of Christ, it may not be as gentle of a part as others, but it serves it's purpose, and honestly it's good to shed some of the expected facade and just be real, for many this is their only opportunity to do that within the church.

[Mike Vande]

I don't know whether to break out and sing "Can you feel the love" or "Oh Lord it's hard to be humble"!

I'm debating between "Bad Blood" by Neil Sedaka and "I Love this Family of God."

You could try "I'm A Little Teapot",author unknown...

[darylscook]

PG

It is your board and you can certainly moderate how you want. But, I am assuming that since you asked you want to know. There have been a few times when it appeared to me that you give Gerald a much longer leash than others. Of course; Honestly, Lately I have gotten to the point where I almost never click on Geralds posts. I am sure he has a place, I just don't care to read Him anymore. Of course, I don't have the time to read as much as I used to. So, maybe my view is biased. His comments only tend to get me to listen more to whomever he is indirectly and directly calling an idiot.

And, I hate the WOF movement. I approach all prayers for healing and deliverance in the model of Shadrack, Meshack, and Obednego comments to the King.

God Bless You
Daryl