Trick or Treating

[DaJudge]

Ponch costumes. Have you tried to find a Ponch costume on eBay? I couldn't after seeing your post. Wow. Blast from the past.

Here's a Chip's costume on which bidding has ended. Ponch was da' man!

http://cgi.ebay.ca/1978-CHIPS-HALLOWEEN-COSTUME-MIB-Ben-Cooper-Complete_W0QQitemZ4778227632QQcategoryZ32995QQcmdZViewItem

[Pastor Bill]

OK, I've gotten 4 "Bad idea" and 1 "Real Christians don't do that"

but I don't see that coming through in the posts, any of you want to speak up?

[scooter]

I saw an article today which I thought aptly described halloween.

"A manifestation of neopaganism."

It was used by a priest in Italy describing the spread of the "American" holiday.

[Jennifer Smith]

It is pagan, greedy and self-centered.

Why would a Christian want to celebrate darkness? The Bible says, "have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness." I would not want my children, even as they are getting older, to see doorways and people decorated with occult or gruesome images. We avoid entertainment associated with witches, ghosts and demons.

We're going to have a great time at our harvest party!

[Jennifer Smith]

okay.. now be nice everybody!!

[dolfan]

It is pagan, greedy and self-centered.

Why would a Christian want to celebrate darkness? The Bible says, "have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness." I would not want my children, even as they are getting older, to see doorways and people decorated with occult or gruesome images. We avoid entertainment associated with witches, ghosts and demons.

We're going to have a great time at our harvest party!

So is Christmas and Easter, to be consistent. What more self-centered practice could there be than Christmas in America?! Christmas is a Christian derivation of pagan observances to the Winter Solstice. Jesus wasn't even born in December. But, I have no problem with it, and celebrate it with all other Christians (save those orthodox believers who observe it on dates besides 12/25).

Easter is also a derivation of Ishtar, a pagan festival celebrating the "resurrection" of the son of Baal and Queen Ishtar, a son whom she "immaculately conceived" by some crazy mating of Ba'al and the moon, and it was celebrated on the Sunday after the first full following the Spring Equinox. Easter still is observed on that particular day. Jesus was killed on the Passover, which is up to 3 weeks off from Easter each year. Still, because there are fuzzy bunnies and bright eggs instead of ghosts and goblins, we pack our churches every Easter and preach Jesus crucified and resurrected. I have no problem with it.

I don't see why we can't make Halloween our own, too. I know of no one who encourages Christians to dance naked in the light of the midnight moon on Halloween night. If someone invites me to do it, I'll politely decline. But, I'm no pagan, nor greedy, nor self-serving because I dress my little girl in an inocuous costume and get candy on Oct. 31.

[scooter]

I don't like the pagan holiday system period, Christmas and Easter included.

[dolfan]

Glad to see the censors at work on Jude2. I used a term, the meaning of which I fully knew, in a post. The opinion of the mod was that I acted inappropriately by posting it. It wasn't that graphic and in context it was apt.

I'll stand corrected without complaint, but I disagree that the term was offensive. If sensibilities have gotten that touchy, then the whole VS thread needs to disappear.

[Shellie]

I'll stand corrected without complaint,

If you didn't want to complain, you would not have posted the latest.

.....And thank you, dolfan for your public scolding to my private explanation. Out of courtesy to you, I privately messaged you. I see you are not into the same courtesy when your flesh is ruffled.

The term WAS inappropriate whether you feel spirtitually free enough to use it or not. VS has never had that term used.

Any further talk about this subject will be deleted so if you wish to defend your right to talk nasty, PM me.

[Mole_J]

I saw an article today which I thought aptly described halloween.

"A manifestation of neopaganism."

It was used by a priest in Italy describing the spread of the "American" holiday.

You stole my thunder. Another view of Halloween as an imperial American holiday intruding on other cultures.

Some Europeans Aren't Fans of Halloween By WILLIAM J. KOLE, Associated Press Writer
Wed Oct 26, 4:20 PM ET

VIENNA, Austria - It's almost Halloween — and all those ghosts, goblins, tricks and treats are giving Hans Kohler the creeps. So the mayor of Rankweil, a town near the border with Switzerland, has launched a one-man campaign disparaging Halloween as a "bad American habit" and urging families to skip it this year.

"It's an American custom that's got nothing to do with our culture," Kohler wrote in letters sent out to households. By midweek, the mayors of eight neighboring villages had thrown their support behind the boycott. So had local police, annoyed with the annual Oct. 31 uptick in vandalism and mischief.

Although Halloween has become increasingly popular across Europe — complete with carved pumpkins, witches on broomsticks, makeshift houses of horror and costumed children rushing door to door for candy — it's begun to breed a backlash.

Critics see it as the epitome of crass, U.S.-style commercialism. Clerics and conservatives contend it clashes with the spirit of traditional Nov. 1 All Saints' Day remembrances.

And it's got purists in countries struggling to retain a sense of uniqueness in Europe's ever-enlarging melting pot grimacing like Jack o' Lanterns.

Halloween "undermines our cultural identity," complained the Rev. Giordano Frosini, a Roman Catholic theologian who serves as vicar-general in the Diocese of Pistoia near Florence, Italy.

Frosini denounced the holiday as a "manifestation of neo-paganism" and an expression of American cultural supremacy. "Pumpkins show their emptiness," he said.

To be sure, Halloween is big business in Europe.

Germans alone spend nearly $170 million, on Halloween costumes, sweets, decorations and parties. The holiday has become increasingly popular in Romania, home to the Dracula myth, where discotheques throw parties with bat and vampire themes.

In Britain, where Halloween celebrations rival those in the United States, it's the most lucrative day of the year for costume and party retailers.

"Without Halloween, I don't think we could exist, to be honest," said Pendra Maisuria, owner of Escapade, a London costume shop that rakes in 30 percent of its annual sales in the run-up to Oct. 31. Metropolitan Police, meanwhile, haven't logged any significant increase in crime.

But not everyone takes such a carefree approach toward the surge in trick-or-treating — "giving something sweet or getting something sour," as it's called in German.

In Austria, where many families get a government child allowance, "parents who abuse it to buy Halloween plunder for their kids should be forced to pay back the aid," grumbled Othmar Berbig, an Austrian who backs the small but strident boycott movement.

In Sweden, even as Halloween's popularity has increased, so have views of the holiday as an "unnecessary, bad American custom," said Bodil Nildin-Wall, an expert at the Language and Folklore Institute in Uppsala.

Italy's Papaboys, a group of pope devotees who include some of the young Catholics who cheer wildly at Vatican events, have urged Christians not to take part in what they consider "a party in honor of Satan and hell," and plan to stage prayer vigils nationwide that night.

Don't take it all so seriously, counters Gerald Faschingeder, who heads a Roman Catholic youth alliance in Austria. He sees nothing particularly evil about glow-in-the-dark skeletons, plastic fangs, fake blood, rubber tarantulas or latex scars.

"It's a chance for girls and boys to disguise themselves and have some fun away from loud and demanding adults," Faschingeder said. "For one evening, at least, kids can feel more powerful than grown-ups."

I remember as a child having Halloween celebration at church. I guess it was not until 10 years ago, I first heard about Christians should not celebrate Halloween. Halloween was one of my favorite holidays as a child.

[DaJudge]

Man, I remember when I was a kid, my church (COGOP) had haunted houses with vampires, coffins and all the rest. When did we get so dadgum sensitive that kids can't have a little fun anymore. I agree that we should steer clear of the Satanic stuff, but kids dressing up in costumes and getting candy is just harmless fun.

[Kenya]

Man, I remember when I was a kid, my church (COGOP) had haunted houses with vampires, coffins and all the rest. When did we get so dadgum sensitive that kids can't have a little fun anymore. I agree that we should steer clear of the Satanic stuff, but kids dressing up in costumes and getting candy is just harmless fun.

I remember our church in Florida having a haunted house too. Although I am not crazy about haunted houses, I don't remember any of it having any satanic influence on me.

[dolfan]

It is what you make of it.

[Pastor Gary]

Glad to see the censors at work on Jude2. I used a term, the meaning of which I fully knew, in a post. The opinion of the mod was that I acted inappropriately by posting it. It wasn't that graphic and in context it was apt.

I'll stand corrected without complaint, but I disagree that the term was offensive. If sensibilities have gotten that touchy, then the whole VS thread needs to disappear.

The VC forum allows much greater lattitude in the use of explicit, sexually graphic terms, as it has a dissclaimer/warning at the index. The term you used is too graphic for this forum, and was appropriately edited.

What other graphic terms for perverse sexual activities would you like us to allow?

[dolfan]

You know, PG, this is kind of embarrassing. I used a term that is no less explicit than many terms that get used on VS. I used a term that accurately describes bizarre behavior, a kind that contrasts with normal behavior like, say, trick-or-treating. I used that term to ridicule pagan rituals. It was not intended to be a vulgar term or just some gratuitous naughtiness. You, Shellie and everyone else for that matter, are entitled to your opinion. You are right because you are final on the board; you're not final because you're necessarily right.

My error was not in the usage of the term, but in responding publicly to the following. Scooter came on, publicly, and basically said I was close to being a pagan myself for using that term --- and I took issue with it, publicly. Then, Shellie edited my post to remove the "phrase" and PM'd me that she'd done so. Meanwhile, and this is key, I posted a response to Scooter without first seeing Shellie's PM to me. I didn't see her PM until I'd responded publicly to Scooter's rather judgmental post (speaking of inappropriate remarks). Then I saw Shellie's post, and then my response to Scooter got removed. Naturally, because they happened within seconds or minutes of each other, I figured, "Hey, Scooter didn't like my terminology and told Shellie." I objected to that publicly, and that was, indeed, wrong. And, Shellie (framing her flexing of her power in such a way that it would appear that I was trying to be "nasty" as she put it) invited me to take it back off the board. I did. She explained herself, and I agreed to just accept that and let it go. And I did.

Now, hours later, you've decided to pile on, and make it look further still like I was actually trying to be profane or something. Well, clap, clap. I don't know what in the world justifies that.

For everyone: I'm sorry I used a term that appeared on this board for less than 5 minutes earlier today. I'm sorry that the particular term was one that would have been considered distasteful. I'm sorry that this forum got cluttered and sidetracked with a completely inane conversation, one that wouldn't have happened had I kept it on the PM. The whole thing hardly justifies the attention being paid to it by you, PG, some 4 hours later after the thing had been dropped. I'd told Shellie in my last PM "no argument here. Duly noted." That was the end of it.

But, PG, you asking me, sarcastically, to suggest other perverse sexual activity labels for general publication is just a needless swipe. It adds to the notion that I was just "funning" or somehow trying to be ugly. That's just not true.