Urge to Merge?
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Pastor Gary
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Urge to Merge?
You may, if you wish, respond to the poll without comment to remain anonymous.
"God is excited to show you mercy. He rises to give you His compassion." (Isaiah 30:18)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
"For surely, O LORD, you bless the righteous; you surround them with your favor as with a shield." (Psalm 5:12)
I think it is almost inevitable with the financial state of cogop and I am not sure how I feel about it. I would say whoever goes in as the new GO will determine how quickly it comes about. I am having some issues with denominationalism and I guess that would be my biggest hesitation to the merger.
Kenya
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
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RuSKY
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Sorry, I went back and re-read who this thread was for "pastors." I guess I should have been with Kenya in the back praying for the men, while they discussed the issue. 
Last edited by RuSKY on February 24th, 2006, 2:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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RamboPreacher
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I believe that it is best that it does happen. I am not so novice to believe that it won't be a challenge,a dn I do not think that it can be forced to happen in a short period without some dramatic changes adn compromises on both sides. Fortunately, or unfortunately - those kinds of changes are probably not going to happen that quickly at the "moronosphere" levels of project managment and sponsorship/support.
I do believe that an "easier" approach would be for the organizations to allow and support the local merges to happen, but have a combined resource at those HQ levels, so that there is not a necessity to have the local congregations/pastorates choose "one side or the other". a merger is a merger, not a "buyout" or "takeover"
If the merge happens at the local church level and "goes up", it may take longer, but I believe it would be a better direction for everyone so they don't have to feel "forced" to merge locally, if it isn't a good fit.
I do believe that an "easier" approach would be for the organizations to allow and support the local merges to happen, but have a combined resource at those HQ levels, so that there is not a necessity to have the local congregations/pastorates choose "one side or the other". a merger is a merger, not a "buyout" or "takeover"
If the merge happens at the local church level and "goes up", it may take longer, but I believe it would be a better direction for everyone so they don't have to feel "forced" to merge locally, if it isn't a good fit.
Thanks, Brent "RamboPreacher" Hoefling
First of all, I think the idea of "merging" with the COG is a misunderstanding. If we reunite, we will be joining the Church of God, Cleveland TN and the COGOP will, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist. Last week I asked if anyone had any concrete knowledge that our leadership is planning to merge with the COG, and received no affirmative replies (at least not openly).
This is either the worst kept secret in our organization, or we're all just a bunch of knitting-circle grandma's gossiping about the latest rumors. I personally think that at the next GA, especially before selecting a new General Overseer, we need to have some questions answered on this subject. One of the obligations of Christian leadership is to be open and straightforward, and I want to know if our leaders intend to join us with the COG.
After I posted that question last week, I spent a little time thinking about another question: have any of our organization's decisions been inconsistent with the idea of merging? I couldn't think of any. Our doctrine and polity changes bring us more in line with COG theology; our choice to make TCOL an extension of Lee University (at twice the price of Lee On-line); our use Pathway press as our publishing house; our joint evangelistic effort with the COG. All of these are consistent with the idea of joining the COG at some point in the not-so-distant future. I'm not saying I disagree with the these decisions, I just think that, as a whole, they indicate that we are moving in the direction of joining the COG.
Even our GH's overspending could be seen as indicative of a pending merge (why not spend it if we're not going to need it ten years from now). If we're unable to support our administrative overhead, practically identical to the COG in doctrine and polity, already using the same publishing house, University and media ministry, why not go ahead and merge? If that's not what our leaders are intending to do, then at our next GA, we need to have some answers as to what is going on, because I can't think of another reasonable explanation for these decisions.
I may be hopelessly naive or out of touch with reality, but is there really any reason that a member or minister needs to be afraid to openly voice their opinion on this topic?
God Bless You- Sam Smith
This is either the worst kept secret in our organization, or we're all just a bunch of knitting-circle grandma's gossiping about the latest rumors. I personally think that at the next GA, especially before selecting a new General Overseer, we need to have some questions answered on this subject. One of the obligations of Christian leadership is to be open and straightforward, and I want to know if our leaders intend to join us with the COG.
After I posted that question last week, I spent a little time thinking about another question: have any of our organization's decisions been inconsistent with the idea of merging? I couldn't think of any. Our doctrine and polity changes bring us more in line with COG theology; our choice to make TCOL an extension of Lee University (at twice the price of Lee On-line); our use Pathway press as our publishing house; our joint evangelistic effort with the COG. All of these are consistent with the idea of joining the COG at some point in the not-so-distant future. I'm not saying I disagree with the these decisions, I just think that, as a whole, they indicate that we are moving in the direction of joining the COG.
Even our GH's overspending could be seen as indicative of a pending merge (why not spend it if we're not going to need it ten years from now). If we're unable to support our administrative overhead, practically identical to the COG in doctrine and polity, already using the same publishing house, University and media ministry, why not go ahead and merge? If that's not what our leaders are intending to do, then at our next GA, we need to have some answers as to what is going on, because I can't think of another reasonable explanation for these decisions.
You may, if you wish, respond to the poll without comment to remain anonymous.
I may be hopelessly naive or out of touch with reality, but is there really any reason that a member or minister needs to be afraid to openly voice their opinion on this topic?
God Bless You- Sam Smith
Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? (Jesus)
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EagerBeaver
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I think an underlying cause of why we might not be hearing much on the topic, or why ministers may not want to address it, is that a lot of the elders in the church cling to the COGOP label. Meaning, they don't want to be affiliated with any other church for whatever the reason may be.
Chris Brewer - My Website
Oops. Sorry. Missed the part about this thread being for "Pastors". I should never post at 7am before I have had my coffee....
Kenya
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
Kenya wrote:Oops. Sorry. Missed the part about this thread being for "Pastors". I should never post at 7am before I have had my coffee....
That's why the women are supposed to be in the back of the forum praying for the men while they discuss church issues.
(haven't brought that up in a while, thought it was time to dust it off)
"Students are encouraged to mingle with the midgets." - Mr. Jones' 1st Block Class
MrDanger wrote:Kenya wrote:Oops. Sorry. Missed the part about this thread being for "Pastors". I should never post at 7am before I have had my coffee....
That's why the women are supposed to be in the back of the forum praying for the men while they discuss church issues.
(haven't brought that up in a while, thought it was time to dust it off)
Oh, shut it, Jeff.
Kenya
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! Galatians 2:21
http://www.somersetcommunitymission.com
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Pastor Bill
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Kenya wrote:Oops. Sorry. Missed the part about this thread being for "Pastors". I should never post at 7am before I have had my coffee....
That's OK Kenya, you do alot of the work anyway, I generally claim you and Rose with Joey and I anyway, we couldn't pastor that church without the two of you behind us.
On the merger, it's funny I would have jumped at it a few years ago, I came from the COG, God lead me to pastor the Mt Sterling CoGoP, and I assumed that God would send me back to the CoG when it was time to leave there. God had other plans and I realized that after a year or so in the CoGoP, I know I am now where God wants me.
I think this will probably happen, and there is alot of good to it, just in the fact that there is no reason for the separation, but humans get in the way of God's work sometimes, and coming back together would be a sign of unity that would be great. BUT I will also say that the CoGoP has a much more family feel to things. I know at least by face, if not by name and church most of the pastors in our state (unless they avoid state functions and hide away) In the CoG, I was doing good to know all the pastors on our district. Some of that would be swallowed up in the larger organization.
Financially it makes sense, in Unity it makes sense, in doctrine and polity it makes sense, but part of the fellowship may be diluted.
Now don't get me wrong, I run into my former DO from the COG once and awhile around when I go out for lunch from work, and it's great to see him and talk to him, ran into the previos DO at a funeral last month, and it was good to catch up with him (his Father-in-law attends my church) So it isn't like that is not there in the CoG, but it would involve alot more people, and probably a lower percentage that you would be as close to.
urge to merge
Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight so therefore I can be objective.
I ask your permission to post. If you feel this is in poor judgement you may delete. Thank you.
I think much of the confusion is that everyone has the opinion that if the two entities merge, then all the little churches will be swallowed up into the larger. I have seen and been involved in this process before. What generally happens and I would think in this case, is that all the local congregations would be given a choice to remain solvent. The main focus of the merger would begin at GHQ and work it's way downward. As has already been stated, it is a make sense deal for Unity, process of operation,i.e. publishing, general theme setting etc. doctorine and certainly economics. Kenya has stated the obvious.
I think the local church's only major hurdle would be taking the suffix off the sign. It would then become just COG everywhere. The General HQ staff would be retired or assimilated into the infra structure of COG. No one would likely miss a step and certainly not a paycheck.
It really is a make sense deal from almost any area you look at it. Pasor Sam is totally correct that the leadership MUST be required to be up front at the GA.
Please take all the above with the knowledge that I am not trying to damage anyone or anything. It is just an objective look.
I ask your permission to post. If you feel this is in poor judgement you may delete. Thank you.
I think much of the confusion is that everyone has the opinion that if the two entities merge, then all the little churches will be swallowed up into the larger. I have seen and been involved in this process before. What generally happens and I would think in this case, is that all the local congregations would be given a choice to remain solvent. The main focus of the merger would begin at GHQ and work it's way downward. As has already been stated, it is a make sense deal for Unity, process of operation,i.e. publishing, general theme setting etc. doctorine and certainly economics. Kenya has stated the obvious.
I think the local church's only major hurdle would be taking the suffix off the sign. It would then become just COG everywhere. The General HQ staff would be retired or assimilated into the infra structure of COG. No one would likely miss a step and certainly not a paycheck.
It really is a make sense deal from almost any area you look at it. Pasor Sam is totally correct that the leadership MUST be required to be up front at the GA.
Please take all the above with the knowledge that I am not trying to damage anyone or anything. It is just an objective look.
Dr. Ron
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panhandler
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Dr Ron,
I have no dog in this fight either but I see it differently from you. I think the a lot of the guys from Cleveland in both organizations are too worried about their positions to let this go forward. In most business mergers (and essentially this is how this one would have to be viewed) you only end up with one CEO, CFO, Personnel Director. In this instance you would only have one Youth Leader, Missions Director, etc. so the political guys are too worried about their positions to think about what is best for the whole.
Do you think that the COG sees this, overall, as a plus in ANY way except a boost for the #s of their organization? What benefit does this bring to them. I also think that most of the CoGoP members will view it as being "swallowed up" by the COG instead of a merge.
I have no dog in this fight either but I see it differently from you. I think the a lot of the guys from Cleveland in both organizations are too worried about their positions to let this go forward. In most business mergers (and essentially this is how this one would have to be viewed) you only end up with one CEO, CFO, Personnel Director. In this instance you would only have one Youth Leader, Missions Director, etc. so the political guys are too worried about their positions to think about what is best for the whole.
Do you think that the COG sees this, overall, as a plus in ANY way except a boost for the #s of their organization? What benefit does this bring to them. I also think that most of the CoGoP members will view it as being "swallowed up" by the COG instead of a merge.
"I imagine God is weary of being called down on both sides of an argument" Cold Mountain
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Pastor Bill
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Dr. Ron is right, I am not sure where the local merger ideas came from. IF local churches want to merge, or work together, neither of those things are being prevented now, nor would they be required.
COGOP has closed and merged churches, in our state due to lack of pastors. COG has many licensed ministers who aren't pastoring. COGOP has maybe one church per town (and none in many areas) other than larger cities, CoG has (at my last count 3-4 years ago when I was still connected) 12 churches in about a 25 mile radius, some of which are only blocks from one another.
If there was a merger, I don't see them merging churches unless the churches wished to, or the church could not support itself. That is the practice I have seen in the COG, so that wouldn't be a concern. The international offices would merge, state offices would either merge, or redivide (larger states might wish to divide into two areas if there are that many churches) states that are combined in CoG or CoGoP might divide back up or be grouped differently. but local churches probably wouldn't change much more than their sign and where they send reports.
COGOP has closed and merged churches, in our state due to lack of pastors. COG has many licensed ministers who aren't pastoring. COGOP has maybe one church per town (and none in many areas) other than larger cities, CoG has (at my last count 3-4 years ago when I was still connected) 12 churches in about a 25 mile radius, some of which are only blocks from one another.
If there was a merger, I don't see them merging churches unless the churches wished to, or the church could not support itself. That is the practice I have seen in the COG, so that wouldn't be a concern. The international offices would merge, state offices would either merge, or redivide (larger states might wish to divide into two areas if there are that many churches) states that are combined in CoG or CoGoP might divide back up or be grouped differently. but local churches probably wouldn't change much more than their sign and where they send reports.
I chose the second option. It may happen but I am not sure how I would respond. The COG is obviously larger and more financially prosperous than us but they have some major issues themselves. They have quite a few strong churches but they also have a myriad of small, ingrown congregations that are dealing with issues that are non-issues in my COGOP. Most of the ones that I have first hand knowledge of are very old line pentecostal in their style and should I ever find myself looking for a church to attend, I would probably pass them by. On the other hand I am sure there are some COGs that I could feel very comfortable in.
On occasion I fellowship with the local pastor and District Overseer for the COG in my area and he seems to think that it is a "done deal" and just a matter of time before it comes to pass.
The COG to me is like having a rich older brother. I admire him and the success he has attained but I know him too well to want to join him.
john
On occasion I fellowship with the local pastor and District Overseer for the COG in my area and he seems to think that it is a "done deal" and just a matter of time before it comes to pass.
The COG to me is like having a rich older brother. I admire him and the success he has attained but I know him too well to want to join him.
john
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