Urge to Merge?

[Pastor Bill]

jdavis, would you say those "non-issues" are non-issues for all of the CoGoP, or specifically your local church?

just curious, personally I have seen as much in the CoGoP as I have CoG when it comes to that, and have heard that in many areas it's worse, but I'd guess that's the case for both denominations.

I would also be interested in knowing what the "major issues" are.

I am not asking this as an attack, just seriously interested, as a former CoG, now CoGoP pastor I don't see as much of the differences.

[Mat]

removed

[dolfan]

I don't qualify to vote in the poll, but I just don't see it happening.

1. There may be many, many who, in the US at the very least, would want to have 'terms' about it. I believe that the COG would love to have a reunion, and I think it would be a testimony of Christ's love in all of you/them/etc. if it could happen. But, practically speaking, why should COG negotiate terms on polity and administration, ministry, etc.? They don't 'need' COGOP to carry out their local and global works, although it would be wonderful as I said. They're much larger as a denomination, and don't have any real incentive to make systemic changes of any kind to accommodate COGOP. They are not looking to overhaul their system, I don't think. And, if that's the case, it is a deal killer on setting terms of merging ---- that is, unless by "merging" it looks more like what Pastor Sam says, and I personally think that's the only way it could happen and could work.

2. All that said, I don't see COGOP people just jumping at the chance fo what would basically be a call to lay down everything and walk over to open arms, but leave your luggage at the door. That just seems highly unlikely to me.

3. Property and jobs. What a can of worms it'll open. More trouble than it is worth, probably.

4. While it would be a great witness, wouldn't it be a colossal waste of energy, too?? Why must there be one shingle over the COG/OP family? Why can't the entities let the current cooperative model work? Seems like it is going gangbusters to me. Just from a cost-benefit standpoint, the energy to change should be on the COGOP side of the ledger, but do you really think there's that much 'mojo' in the leadership of COGOP to convince the rank and file that it is the thing to do? That's not the sense I get just from me being a nosy-noserton on J2.

[Paully_44]

what are the main theological differences between the 2 denominations?

As for merging, not sure how that would even impact us here in the NW. I couldnt tell you where one of the COG building were, if they are even out west.

[Pastor Bill]

doctrinal differences are quickly becoming non-existant. but this would be pretty much CoGoP joining CoG, they wouldn't be making a bunch of changes, I would say minister's credentials would remain the same. Lee isn't a requirement, and not even pressed as much as TC was, and working at a real liberal arts college I can say they are still doing much better at staying Christ Centered than most universities (that coming from my former IT director who visited and could really see the difference, a Baptist btw). I think the impact on the local churches would be minimal, or else it just wouldn't happen.

[free]

I talked to a COG Administrative Bishop (State Overseer) of one of their larger states and he said (in his opinion) that the 2 would not merge and that most on their side see no need for a merger.

I do know this much...Dr. Ron talks a lot about property being deeded to Cleveland...It would't be bad for churches to check their deeds to be sure how they're written up. I know of a chuch that had their re-written to say that if the COGOP ceases to exist as it currently is that the deed is void and all property rights (sell, buy, etc) are given back to the local church.

Just food for thought.

[jdavis]

jdavis, would you say those "non-issues" are non-issues for all of the CoGoP, or specifically your local church?

Pastor Bill you may have more insight into COG than I based on first hand experience. The "non-issues" that I have witnessed in COG from the outside are hair, makeup, clothesline, i.e. what constitutes personal holiness. I know that this is not an issue in COGOP our area but it may be in yours.

I would also be interested in knowing what the "major issues" are.

Again this is my perception from the outside. The COG structure, International and State Offices, seems to be very political in nature with a lot of jockeying for position, infighting, and posturing for the higher offices.Kinda like us on steroids. The progressive vs. conservative conflict is alive a kicking based on my observations of evangelists and their comments during revivals that I have attended in the COG.

Here's another analogy to go with the rich brother/poor brother one:

I live in a small but adequate home. It has some problems but I have learned to live with them and have begun to address the most serious issues. Someone comes along and offers to move me into a larger home. This home is in the same county but is definitely a different town. Though the home looks nice enough I have observed some problems that will need to be addressed for me to feel comfortable and I am unfamiliar with the tax rates in the town and the inner workings of the local government. Do I move to the new place just because it is bigger and set about to integrate myself into my new surroundings or should I stay where I am at and continue to fix up my smaller but adequate home.

Then I have another option: Maybe I should do like some of my friends and move out of town to an area where there are no city taxes or deed restrictions and build a brand new home without the problems that I had in the smaller home or the ones that I observed in the larger one.

Pastor Bill, there would be a lot of things for me to consider should a merger take place. I really don't know what I would do at this time. But the last option seems very appealing to me.

john

[Pastor Bill]

jdavis, would you say those "non-issues" are non-issues for all of the CoGoP, or specifically your local church?

Pastor Bill you may have more insight into COG than I based on first hand experience. The "non-issues" that I have witnessed in COG from the outside are hair, makeup, clothesline, i.e. what constitutes personal holiness. I know that this is not an issue in COGOP our area but it may be in yours.

That's what I thought you might be speaking of, in certain areas, this is probably true, just as it is with the CoGoP, from what I have seen there's more of that in the CoGoP than the CoG. Every local church is going to be a little different, I have heard some refer to "old time CoG" refering to those issues just as many in the CoGoP speak of the "concerned" As an organization, they officially did away with those teachings earlier than the CoGoP, but you know how unanimously those changes have been!

I would also be interested in knowing what the "major issues" are.

Again this is my perception from the outside. The COG structure, International and State Offices, seems to be very political in nature with a lot of jockeying for position, infighting, and posturing for the higher offices.Kinda like us on steroids. The progressive vs. conservative conflict is alive a kicking based on my observations of evangelists and their comments during revivals that I have attended in the COG.

Evangelists speak more of it than anyone because they are visiting so many various churches. Are there more politics, yes probably, it's a larger organization, and if your goals are to be a big fish, then in that aspect a smaller pond will make that easier.

Here's another analogy to go with the rich brother/poor brother one:

I live in a small but adequate home. It has some problems but I have learned to live with them and have begun to address the most serious issues. Someone comes along and offers to move me into a larger home. This home is in the same county but is definitely a different town. Though the home looks nice enough I have observed some problems that will need to be addressed for me to feel comfortable and I am unfamiliar with the tax rates in the town and the inner workings of the local government. Do I move to the new place just because it is bigger and set about to integrate myself into my new surroundings or should I stay where I am at and continue to fix up my smaller but adequate home.

Those considerations would have to be made. and this is the real issue. I can't say the CoG would "feel like home" to most CoGoP members/ministers. I can't say I am less comfortable now. For me, God lead me to pastor a specific local church, and to follow that leading, I moved from CoG to CoGoP, had some things that I had to get used to being different (similar to moving into a new house, good analogy btw) It's not all better, not all worse, but since it was God leading, I'm great.

Speculating about the merger without really specifically knowing the leading that God is doing with our leadership really is just speculation. If God leads in this, then it will be great, if He doesn't, then I don't care how nice it sounds it will fail.

Then I have another option: Maybe I should do like some of my friends and move out of town to an area where there are no city taxes or deed restrictions and build a brand new home without the problems that I had in the smaller home or the ones that I observed in the larger one.

Ah but brand new homes have their own set of problems, not that they are bad, but it's still the same situation, only more responsibilty on good planning and getting all your approval and permits in order. Not saying this isn't an option, only that it isn't an end all fix either.

Pastor Bill, there would be a lot of things for me to consider should a merger take place. I really don't know what I would do at this time. But the last option seems very appealing to me.

john

Personally I would be very leery of going independant, there would be alot to consider before making that choice. Merging with the CoG wouldn't be as scary to me, but then, I've been there, and was fine with it, it's not much different than CoGoP.

If a Church/Pastor is going to consider going independant, that needs to be a choice on it's own, NOT just a reaction to a merger or something else the International offices do. Otherwise my fear would be that they rush into something that needs to be done right, or not done at all.

Dr. Ron and I have discussed independance vs. membership many times, and while what's best for him and for me may be different, I have to respect how he went about it, he has a well thought through and developed ministry that has addressed the issues that hinder many independant churches very well. On the other side, I have seen the "I disagreed so I left" churches fall to pieces because they failed to do anything more than disconnect from their organization.

[Sherry]

Oops. Sorry. Missed the part about this thread being for "Pastors". I should never post at 7am before I have had my coffee....

That's why the women are supposed to be in the back of the forum praying for the men while they discuss church issues.

(haven't brought that up in a while, thought it was time to dust it off)

Uh Um............I don't think I read that correctly........excuse me while I go get my glasses!

[Mat]

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[beemerdude]

"It is better to remain silent and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

I don't know who said it, but the ole' beemerdude is going to take their advice and stay out of this one ...

[Pastor Gary]

I may be hopelessly naive or out of touch with reality, but is there really any reason that a member or minister needs to be afraid to openly voice their opinion on this topic?

I sadly suspect that there may, indeed, be some reasons for Pastors to hesitate before being vocal about this. Here's a hypothetical scenario for you;

Let's say Pastor Fred is against the idea of a merger; he is opposed for a dozen reasons, among them the fact that COG churches send much more $$$ up the food-chain and out of the local church. Fred has decided that his church would be better off in every way of they were independent over COG. But his SO, Bishop Ben, is a company man through and through, all on-board with the restoration of the COG family through a merger. At the next State Convention, SO Ben is committed to making sure all his pastors are people of like vision, and he doesn't want to be left out in the coming merger by having black marks on his record (losing some churches and properties.)

Old Fred might want to answer the poll without a post, because he has heard that Bishop Ben lurks Jude2.

[jdavis]

Pastor Bill Wrote:

Speculating about the merger without really specifically knowing the leading that God is doing with our leadership really is just speculation. If God leads in this, then it will be great, if He doesn't, then I don't care how nice it sounds it will fail.

Agreed! Pastor Bill, my concern is based on the history of our International Offices of making huge decisions without any input from the field. The most disconcerting to me was the closing of the College when we got the news via VCR tape from Bro. Murray. Based on financial consideration we were informed that it was done. Now 15 years later are we going to get a DVD in the mail from Bro.(insert your choice of overseer here) that due to financial considerations we find it necessary to merge with the COG.

I don't know whether I'm for a merger or not. What I am not in favor of is (in keeping with the city govt. analogy) an annexation of the COGOP into the COG without our input and approval.

In order for there to be a true reuniting of our organizations, it would seem to me that the conditions or circumstances of the original split of '23, when a power hungry group of elders seized control of the leadership of the organization and ousted AJT on what later was proved to be unfounded charges, would have to be addressed.

You may say that that is old news. Maybe we could ask Robert White former GO of the COG if he feels that he was treated fairly when he was ousted in '96 over a book deal that some in high places didn't like.

I have never advocated or wanted independence but neither do I want to return to a bondage of politics and control that I believe God may be trying to deliver us from.

john

[jklapp]

I say Amen and Hallelujah to a merger... Why? Because we know God responds positive to unity.

Unity at Pentecost

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Unity brought growth to the church

Acts 2:46-47 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Unity brought signs and wonders

Acts 5:12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

And unity brought miracles

Acts 8:6-8 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. 7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. 8 And there was great joy in that city.

July 30th, Akron is hosting a joint Church of God / Church of God of Prophecy District Rally and it has already been declared to be a Miracle Service. The two Churches have even united together in a 40 day fast in preparation for this service. (Starting February 26th) So we are expecting the Lord to move in a mighty way!!! Because we know God responds positive to unity

God Bless,
John

[Pastor Bill]

PS Again, if we are looking to "hook-up" why not the AG?

I don't think it's about "hooking-up" If it is, then just drop the idea. The reason for any merger should be to put back together a church that split 80-90 years ago.

Our doctrine and polity were the same, they have not taken the same paths over those years, but are coming to the same conclusions. As an act of reconcilliation, a merger would be a good thing, it would bury past hurts and move forward in unity.

We don't have the history with the AG or other orgs.