Judgement Question?

[Pastor Bill]

Steve,

The problem with that is with no standards, youth leaders are left up to their own judgement, and at times find themselves blindsided by a parent who holds a restriction that isn't specific biblically, as you yourself pointed out.

To most people in the US, a modest bathing suit is a non-issue, go to any summer camp (other than a few church camps) and it isn't even brought up. Yet some would assume differently. The church camp I went to was right on the lake, and we all swam often, or had activities on the sandy bank. As a teenager, I didn't think one thing about it, (and the ratio was about 70 to 10 girls to guys ) I remember alot about camp, even dated a girl from camp for a long time, but that really isn't the issue.

On the opposite end of that, I attended and worked at a Boy Scout Camp in Michigan, there were NO girls, and boy was there alot of lust going on there, girls were a frequent topic, and seeing them wasn't needed to lust.

I just feel like with no scriptural specifics to say "this is wrong" I feel like we are taking an approach that does little to help, but makes us feel we are doing much more than we are. That false sense of security will come back to bite us later.

[Poimen]

I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I was trying to opt for words that would not have a condemning tone to them -- yet still express how strongly I feel about the subject. I did not mean to come across personal or insulting.

I'm out of time to post right now. Promised the wife I'd help her with some stuff before my birthday dinner/get to gether tonight. I'll try to share more later.

[Preaching-Mason]

Preaching-Mason

I guess my thoughts are if you really feel it is wrong to do infront of your churchmembers, or the kids in the youth, then what makes it right to do in front of anyone else? Do you only minister to those whose names are on the books? or do you allow God to use you even outside of the church?

I would guess that you do, and so to follow that conclusion out, wouldn't that make you a spiritual leader even at work, or anytime?

It may just be that I doubt anyone from my church is going to get lustful feelings looking at me (I ain't that pretty) and I also have enough respect for people that I don't assume that is the only thing on their minds.

If there started to be a problem, then you deal with the situation at hand, but I don't think such strict guidelines are needed.

I think we are talking about two differnet things here! IF you feel like its ok , for your leaders to go Half naked in front of the youth then , that is your right, I never said It was sin....Only that I think it is bad Judgment.

I am not Judgung anyone else opinion for them , only that opinion for me.

to Answer your question, and To me it is a very different thing, for me to work without my shirt on in front of 20 contstuction workers , who are all hot from work and none have their shirt on, than it is for me to work without my shirt in front of a group of teenagers whom I am suppose to be their spiritual leader. AND I dont work without my shirt on , If I think it might offend someone, male or female, and I never go without my shirt in front of any ladies on the job either. Like I said to me it is more about respect than lust, but I dont think , people after they see their leader in a bathing suit will look at that leader the same......I wouldnt want my pastors wife to swim in front of me, and as a pastor I dont want to swim in front of anyone that I am Pastoring.


Like I said, if someone is a leader , and they feel it is ok to go half naked in front of their youth or church, then BY all means , that is their opinion, but for me I cant, and I feel it is wrong ( not in a right/wrong sinful way but in a poor taste way) and as a Pastor MY Youth leader will not be doing this either.
Its not that I dont trust my leadership.....I have more trust and respect for the leaders in my church, than I have for alot of the more well known leadership.....My people are awesome people, and would lay their life down for the people they serve, And none of them would ever try to , but should they , I would not let it happen....to me it sends the wrong message.


I guess it just comes down to personal convictions, I just dont see how a grown woman can be comfortable in a bathing suit in front of a group of teenage boys, or how a grown man can feel compfortable in his swim trunks, in front of a group of teenage girls.... especially when they are their spiritual leader maybe I am missing something . but I just cant see it!


AGAIN THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION, I dont want anyone to think I am attacking , or trying to force my view on them.

[Pastor Bill]

Brother, no offense, but you seem to be contradicting yourself, it's personal conviction, and not sinful, but you wouldn't allow it to happen?

There is nothing spiritual about it when you are working, but since you are their spiritual leader, then you can't?

There is no logic to your explanation. If you feel uncomfortable with it, then by all means your personal convictions should be followed, but to push that out on others (like your youth leaders and all those you refer to as "half-naked") then it no longer is just a personal conviction for you.

[Preaching-Mason]

Brother, no offense, but you seem to be contradicting yourself, it's personal conviction, and not sinful, but you wouldn't allow it to happen?

There is nothing spiritual about it when you are working, but since you are their spiritual leader, then you can't?

There is no logic to your explanation. If you feel uncomfortable with it, then by all means your personal convictions should be followed, but to push that out on others (like your youth leaders and all those you refer to as "half-naked") then it no longer is just a personal conviction for you.

NO OFFENSE TAKEN, I am enjoying the debate quite a bit

I think you are missing my point, I am not very good explaining things I guess.

How is it contradicting? it is my opinion, and as the Pastor my opinion is that my youth leader wont do it under my leadership, because I think it is inappropriate. Are you really saying that you think, working on a construction site in front of men without your shirt is the same as a man being in a pool, with teenage girls? And are you saying that you see no difference in that , and a grown woman, in her bathing suit with a pool full of teenage boys? Thats what I meant by not being wrong, just inappropriate, in front of certain people......their are alot of things that arent in and of themselves wrong, but in certain situations they are wrong. does that make any more sense?


And also would you care to answer my question,scenario" you are working at your house, and its 95 degrees so you decide to take off your shirt, say a group of teenage girls come by from your church to talk to you are you going to put your shirt on or just talk with them while you are all sweaty, and half naked ( this phrase "half naked" isnt a derogatory comment, just a phrase I use to describe someone without all their clothes on ) so would you put your shirt on or not? If so why? If not why?.....THis is what I was talking about in those earlier posts. for me alot of it has to do with respect, and I just dont think a leader can or will get the same respect after their kids has seen them in a bathing suit.

I still dont see how a grown man can feel comfortable in his trunks with teenage girls he is leading, nor can I see how a grown woman can feel comfortable in front of teenage boys while in her bathing suit.....if I am missing something, I honestly would like to know....really I mean that as honestly as I can , I would really like to know

[Pastor Bill]

...it is my opinion, and as the Pastor my opinion is that my youth leader wont do it under my leadership,

No, it's a direct restriction on your youth pastor.

you're the pastor, and you have that right, but you can't call it just an opinion when you mandate it for someone under your authority. That is what I am calling contradictory. I may disagree with Poimen on this, but at least he is consistant in his beliefs.

( this phrase "half naked" isnt a derogatory comment, just a phrase I use to describe someone without all their clothes on )

Yes, it is, it implies that the person is not appropriately covered. It's used not just as someone who has removed an acceptable amount of clothing, but for one who is inappropriately covered.

Sometimes (not often) I may be sitting around the house without my shirt on (just got up, not having put one on, getting ready for bed, etc. If anyone comes over I put it back on, it's not neccesary to have it off, and not really appropriate in that situation. Working outside and it gets hot, most of the time I still won't take my shirt off (I'm fat and it don't look good) but I don't see a problem with it either. If I were working outside without a shirt on, really it doesn't matter who comes by, I'm working, it's hot, and it's appropriate attire for that situation, now if I stop working to go sit around and talk, or something, then yeah, I'd probably put something on.

Swimming is the same situation, It's an appropriate situation for suitable clothing, that doesn't mean find the skimpiest string bikini, or tightest shorts.

I have done alot of swimming, and it has been mainly in public or semi public places, I have seen inappropriately dressed men and women, just as I have seen inappropriately dressed people at the mall, wal-mart, and just about anywhere.

Two things that are more important than the amount of skin shown.

1. Intentions - I have seen one girl coming into Walmart she had just come from church (I am familiar with the church) strict holiness dress, long denim skirt, hair down to her waist, no makeup, no jewelry, showing as much skin as she could get away with in that outfit by having the skirt unbuttoned up to her hip. She was much more covered than most people in the store, but IMHO her intentions made her dress more inappropriate than someone the next aisle over in shorts and a tank top.

2. Situation - Dress should be appropriate to the situation. Walking through the mall in a swimsuit, is inappropriate, swiming in the same suit would not be. In this way I can see you feeling comfortable being shirtless at work, but not say, in the pulpit

Who I am around shouldn't dictate different actions. Being shirtless is not a sexual thing for you when you are at work, and doesn't have to be in the pool either.

That being said, leaders do have to always be aware of the way those under them are perceiving them, and extra measures have to be taken IF there is a problem. This is regardless of amount of clothing. If there seems to be a crush, enfatuation, lusting towards you, then deal with it accordingly, but that's a whole different story than making blanket rulings that will limit even innocent activities.