Should we Torture Prisoners to Obtain Information??

[N.T. Wright Fan]

What is appalling, though, is any willingness to find a hint of moral equivalency in "justice" as viewed by a jihadist as compared to, well, almost any other idea of it. Very simply put, and go ahead and accuse me of oversimplifying for the sake of feeling superior or what have you, but very simply put, Islam is a religion of bloodlust. It is not a monolith, I know. But, let's not define it by the exceptions in the West, or even in Muslim countries. It isn't my religion, it is a false religion, and I frankly do not care to entertain its worse nature for the sake of "honoring the dignity" of those Muslims who oppose that worse nature.

My speculation concerning the motivations of so-called "suicide bombers" is reasonable, I think. I dare say they see themselves as an instrument of justice, not in the role of mass-murderer, as though violence was an end to itself. This is not about Islam.

[dolfan]

Is it, or is it not Christlike to torture people? I still say no, it isn't, despite my own want for vengence were somebody to attempt to do my own family harm. Again, sadly the question is not what WOULD I do but what SHOULD I do (this betrays the split between my theology and praxis which souldn't exist).

Should our government torture people?

If we look to the example of Jesus, by whose life we understand who God is, can we justify torture? Again, I come back with the answer that no, we can't. To do so is to capitulate to evil and to incorporate tools (torture and the threat of death) used by the Romans and the Jewish leadership in their opposition to Jesus.

How did Jesus win the victory? He allowed evil to exhaust its power against himself on the cross. Simeon had stated that Jesus came to be the light to the nations. It was on the cross that Jesus was displaying the way to victory - self-sacrificial love. In so doing, Jesus defeated the enemies of his kingdom, the nexus powers of sin and death.

If the United States is to build on this accomplishment by Jesus, if we are to shine a light to those in darkness as Jesus did are we not to follow his example of self-sacrificial love in the way we treat people (including terrorists)?

Has the very public news that we torture terrorists been a light to a world of Muslims?

See, here's the breakdown. The US cannot build on the accomplishment by Jesus. Only the church can do that. In Eph. 2, Paul describes to that Gentile-composed church that they were strangers to the promise, far off from Christ, but brought into His promised people by Christ's blood, because He is the bridge that unites into Himself the one people He has called from all nations, "thus establishing peace" (vs. 15), and because He has done this, the "household of God" is composed of "fellow citizens" from all nations (vss. 19, 20), "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Himself as the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord."

The church is built. It is established on its foundation. The nation of God, if you will, is not the United States nor any other nation. It is the church of Jesus, and it alone is called to do the works of Christ.

Government has a limited role, biblically speaking, and it is one that God authorized. To exercise judgment and mete punishment. That's really it. Romans 13 says that the government "does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection ....."; 1 Peter 2 also puts our role in that government in perspective: "Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right." The role of government is judgment and punishment for wrong, and praise for those who do right. Who does right? People. The government does not exist to praise itself. What people do right? Believers, the household of God. Government's sole job as it relates to the church is to praise it. Whatever else it does, it does so by the allowance of God and not by the virtue of the church in particular.

When we ask, then, whether our government should torture people, it is a non-sequitur that that question should arise from any biblical injunction to do or not do anything. By that token, it is also not the purview of the United States to shine the light of Jesus anywhere. The US is not the church. Believers within the US? Another story, of course. That Muslims think ill of the US due to torture or any other reason is a Muslim problem, not a Christian one. It is Islam which seeks power over governments and people. Islam is more akin to the goals of earthly governors than Christianity is, which seeks to give power away to the humble, obedient, loving and poor. That lust for power in Islam, the same lust that possesses men everywhere except for the hearts of those who are truly Christ's, shows itself in a lust for blood and lust for money and lust for control and lust for self-justification. So, when Muslims look the America as 'crusaders' and impugn Christianity, it is not the duty of Christianity, even in America, to answer Islam's self-constructed and false paradigm (oh, boy, I used Rambo's word! ) by taking responsibility for America's actions. The connection is exploited by Islam, it is wholly based on a lie, and is a clever deceit. It is too clever, because Christians often believe it as well.

So, the "we" in your question "are we not to follow his example" is not the Christian "we". It is an American government "we". And, the American government "we" is not, aside from its very limited, restrained role as ordained by God (the same as all civil governments) subject to nor can it every aspire to the example of Jesus Christ.

One day, there will be one nation worshipping and serving One Lord and He will be its sovereign, and His government will be the government of the world. That's not now.

[MacUser]

Has the very public news that we torture terrorists been a light to a world of Muslims?

I understand you are focusing on this particular subject like a razor in attempts to change hearts and minds, derail other HC agendas.. but it's just bigger than all this. This myopic view to prove your point is washed over several times a second by much more horrific acts.

I submit that before we care about how we are being a light to murderers... Let's take care of the most innocent among us first.

Let's stop any and all whom support the killing of our unborn. Let's stop the politicians that vote to fund public centers where our most precious are being slaughtered.. right here.. right now. Funded by our tax dollars and not just within our borders now.. but thanks to Obama now funded worldwide!!

If we proved to all the Muslim radicals via love of Christ and still do not stand viciously against the systematic killing of our unborn for [insert your agenda here ] it falls on deaf ears.

Uncomfortable information extraction called Torture? Aborted babies are not being waterboarded.. but SLAUGHTERED. That echo in your head is the ringing truth.

[Russell Roberts]

Dolfan, don't buy into the false dichotomy that views politics and religion as being seperate. They aren't. You acknowledged yourself that the authority that stands behind our own government is God Himself. They are his agents to administer justice. And when they err in administering justice, they must be confronted and held accountable.

What we moderns fail to understand is that the message of Jesus was absolutely political. During his ministry, Caesar claimed to be Lord and Savior. Interesting huh? Because at the end of Acts we find Paul confronting the claims of Christ to be Lord and Savior to the very members of Caesars own household.

Despite our attempts to keep them seperate, government and religion go together. If, as you rightfully noted in your comment, the government is to mete out justice and punishment, they must be confronted when they fail to act in accordance with the principles of justice. When the Muslims think ill of the U.S. it isn't simply a Muslim problem. It has become a Christian problem.

Had we held the government to account in their unswerving support of Israel in their problems with the Palestinians, which, by the way, is based on a total misunderstanding of the eschatological framework taught in scripture, maybe we wouldn't have this problem today. But that is water under the bridge.

If we are to move forward from this point, both the Church leadership and the government must be called to account and confronted with the truth that torture is inhumane and inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. Otherwise, we will simply perpetuate the violence.

[dolfan]

Dolfan, don't buy into the false dichotomy that views politics and religion as being seperate. They aren't.

I'm not separating politics and religion. Politics is people-tics. The political beliefs of people are influenced by their religious beliefs, and vice versa. You can't separate people's interaction with each other, within themselves, and with the world around them into neat categories. That was not at all what I was getting into, though.

God's use of government is limited. Wield the sword, mete out punishment for wrongdoing. That government does other things is no implication of God's use for it. It serves God's purpose, corruption and all. It is a tool, and humanity's further and misuse of it does not mean that there is another, more right way of using it toward ends that God does not use it to reach. It does what it does. It serves His purpose.

You acknowledged yourself that the authority that stands behind our own government is God Himself. They are his agents to administer justice. And when they err in administering justice, they must be confronted and held accountable.

The accounting must rely on a standard. In the case of civil government, there is no biblical standard. The standard for each government is set by and subjected to the people who are in positions of power to be able to work it for what its worth to them, whatever their motivations may be. That exercise is not unbiblical, or anti-Christ, unless the punishment for deeds is for deeds that are not wrong, or praise that ought to be given for good is withheld. That's it. Where government tortures someone over whom it has no governing authority, it is wholly and completely a matter outside of the province of the church. The government is not accountable to the church, nor is the church accountable to the government. Why? Because there is no standard of governmental "righteousness" for civil government to follow. Therefore, there can be no accounting. The only errors in administering justice, as far as God is concerned, is punishment of deeds as wrong that are not wrong and failure to praise what is good when good happens. God is quite unconcerned, as far as the Scriptures reveal, with how accountable the government is to the people in any regard. And, if He is not unconcerned, He has given no clue as to how people may or should react to the government's "injustices".

He has, though, provided an instrument of justice in the truest and most whole sense --- the church. Its justice is to do the works of Jesus. This has nothing to do with what civil government may or may not do. However, civil government should only have praise for it as a doer of good, and should never have reason to wield the sword against any believer for wrongdoing. Where it wields the sword against anyone else or for any other reason is very much a matter to which the church has no duty or call to react.

What we moderns fail to understand is that the message of Jesus was absolutely political. During his ministry, Caesar claimed to be Lord and Savior. Interesting huh? Because at the end of Acts we find Paul confronting the claims of Christ to be Lord and Savior to the very members of Caesars own household.

Despite our attempts to keep them seperate, government and religion go together. If, as you rightfully noted in your comment, the government is to mete out justice and punishment, they must be confronted when they fail to act in accordance with the principles of justice. When the Muslims think ill of the U.S. it isn't simply a Muslim problem. It has become a Christian problem.

Absolutely political? Yes, in the sense that it is intended for people to organize their lives around. He built the institution for that organization: the church. It is the church which must act according to Christ's principles of justice on the whole. The civil government has no such duty. The Muslim problem of ill thought toward the US is the US as a Christian entity. It is patently not a Christian entity, no matter what even the Founders may have considered it and hoped for it. It is an impossibility. To the extent that the Muslims think so, it is a lie to justify their hatred of both the US and Christianity; to the extent that Christians think so, it is a self-delusion to make their civil government passions matter eternally and to make their Christian passions matter practically.

In that latter deceit lies the most significant challenge, in my own view, that American Christians face: bringing the kingdom of God to bear on the world around them through their own doing of Christ's works to the people around them as opposed to co-opting government to do it -- in any measure or fashion -- for them.

Had we held the government to account in their unswerving support of Israel in their problems with the Palestinians, which, by the way, is based on a total misunderstanding of the eschatological framework taught in scripture, maybe we wouldn't have this problem today. But that is water under the bridge.

Maybe or maybe not, but that's beside the point about the church, in my opinion.

If we are to move forward from this point, both the Church leadership and the government must be called to account and confronted with the truth that torture is inhumane and inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus. Otherwise, we will simply perpetuate the violence.

We will move forward from this point because the earth is still orbiting around the sun. We don't have any control over that. Whether the church progresses to its ultimate prize is also a certainty. So, to that extent "we" have a job to do and we should do it. That job, however, is not the role or task of reforming the government "we" to conform to the teachings of Jesus. If every government in the world were populated wholly and completely with only committed followers of Jesus, it would be no more accounted for in the matters that you are laying at its feet to be concerned with than it is in the hands of heathens and corrupt people today. Government is not and cannot be our deliverer to the kingdom.

[Russell Roberts]

Dolfan, I wish I had time to respond point by point but I don't. I will ask you this: If Jesus has been crowned as the King of Creation (and he has been), aren't all governments answerable to Jesus for whatever actions they take? I say yes. If so, the Church must confront any acts of injustice by the government. Whatever powers and principalities are operating within the government will be held accountable as well as those who operate in collusion with them.

If I have more time later I will write more.

[dolfan]

I'll wait to give you a chance to rebut however you'd like or care to. I'll give you this answer to the question, though, for now, with other questions.

What government will stand before Him on the day of judgment? What government's name is written in the Lamb's book of life?

[Russell Roberts]

While abortion is tragic, I would suggest that to focus on abortion while millions more children die from starvation as a result of the lack of international debt relief is the myopic view. But that's a different topic and not germane to this thread. But to oppose abortion and to shine the light of truth on other types of injustice committed by our government are not mutually exclusive.

[Russell Roberts]

I'll wait to give you a chance to rebut however you'd like or care to. I'll give you this answer to the question, though, for now, with other questions.

What government will stand before Him on the day of judgment? What government's name is written in the Lamb's book of life?

Dolfan, governments are comprised of individual people who make decisions about these types of issues. So my answer is all of them. That no government will stand as a single entity for judgment doesn't advance your point in my opnion. Each individual which comprises a government either chooses to collude with evil, or not.

Within Israel there were those who feared God, yet she, as a nation, experienced judgment, particularly in the Babylonian exile and in 70 AD.

[Dr. Ron]

I wrote a post last night and the wi-fi at the hospital failed....I won't take the time to type that much tonight...

Russell, I totally understand your point.....and I have to admit you have a way of posing questions which can never be answered with debate....the slide is always available..Rhetorical questions always give a multiplicity of responses...none have to ever be definitive....alas ...no conclusions....safe ....

I have debated for years....to no real avail...I wasted much time trying to decide how to best serve the master.....I can tell you that grace is the abounding factor in serving our Lord.

Your question about the christian's responsibility in the "torturing " of individuals is not actually rocket science.

We are in a WAR....I know Obama doesn't want to say that ...he might offend his mentors....but we are in a WAR....It is a war against terror....Argue the theater all you wish....the friend of my enemy is my enemy....Those who are combatants in this war are to be neutralized...by what ever means necessary.....period....

If the CIA needs to extract information from a "combatant" then use whatever means necessary....it would certainly be that way in a combat zone....same rules apply....

So, the answer you seek is so simple it requires no debate nor deserves no debate.....should a christian even be in the army? If so...why not the CIA?

Nuff said .....and all I will say...

[Russell Roberts]

War is NOT without rules. Surely you have heard of the Geneva Convention? Go to whatever combat zone you like, the same rules apply. You cannot shoot a surrendering soldier, you cannot shoot at a Red Cross vehicle, you cannot simply torture and maim people at random. However inhumane war might be, and however odd it might seem, there are rules to war.

But that is beside the point. We aren't trying to evaluate the rules of war. I am trying to point out that torturing people is not Christ-like and shouldn't be used. It is illegal, immoral, and unethical to torture people. PERIOD.

If you found my questions to be 'unanswerable' I suggest that they are only unanswerable to those unwilling to consider a perspective that conflicts with their present worldview.

Is the irony of this statement...

I wasted much time trying to decide how to best serve the master.....I can tell you that grace is the abounding factor in serving our Lord.

...in a thread in which you advocate torture lost on you...or is that another 'unanswerable' question?

[Dr. Ron]

ROEs have always been a part of OUR manual....but never of the enemies we fought....NEVER in our history have we ever fought in battles where the enemies applied Our ROEs...epecially the COWARDS OF ISLAM.....

You finally answered your question....you believe it is Un-Christian to "torture" a prisoner.....and yes I am very well versed in the Geneva Convention .....I studied the Nhuremburg trials in extreme detail...(one of those searches)....
I study WWII history as a hobby...I am not an expert but am somewhat knowledable....Interestingly, those folks resemble Obama's ideals more than the CIA ever has..

Russell, man I am on your team. I really do love you and appreciate your deep love of the Word...

But we are never going to become the "full" image of Christ....especially the sitting and debating of those things not germane to the winning of souls....that is actually the only thing He commanded us to do....

NO, I do not like the idea of torture....No, I do not glorify war.....wish it never happened.....but it does and always will.....and since it does and will, we must fight and win.....at all costs against those who would seek to destroy our families....

I had a family whose 15 year old daughter was missing...The father found the last guy she was seen with and questioned him....He smirked at the dad and said "if I knew where she was, I wouldn't tell you"....The dad knocked the kid on his butt, duct taped him to a chair and pulled his knife out and almost severed his thumb.....The kid talked...quickly.....then the dad brought him to my office and when he went to the motel where his daughter was being kept (not against her will) she said they were going to leave that evening.....The boy said "if he hadn't been such a bad a__ we would have gotten away.... The man sat in my office and heard the daughter and the boy talk about all the sex and drugs and booze they had done over the weekend...He never said a word but wept like a child...He then turned to the kid and said " how can I help you?" I said" it is not longer your problem.....I had the illegal kid deported....and he happily took his very deeply injured thumb with him....but not the girl...
Torture worked in that instance.....good outcome....

[rough_rider]

Had one of my wife's cousins come to stay with my sister in-law for the weekend. Two weeks later she was wondering how she could get him to pack up and go back to Va Beach. Finally she sent him to her mother's place to stay (my mother in-law ). Two days later he was on a bus headed out of town...Torture works! 8)

[Russell Roberts]

Dr. Ron,

I appreciate you response. I don't disagree that torture is effective. I have also noted througout this thread what I most likely WOULD do vs. what I SHOUD do. I can assure you brother that if there is anyone out there who can relate to the feeling of the father in your story it is me. I can also assure you that you have never talked with anyone more determined to spread the gospel than me.

I didn't bring this topic up simply to debate it. I posted it because I think that the church needs to re-evaluate its position on various issues in order to be the light to the world that I believe God has called us to be.

I love that you acknowledge that we are on the same team. We are. We just see things differently. But I have stated my position for your consideration and the consideration of others on this board. My dad is fond of saying that 'a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.' I try to incorporate that mantra into my life at various moments and I think this is one of them.

But my position is clear. I think torture is wrong. I don't think it is Christ-like or part of our calling as a church to endorse this behavior. I will leave it at that. And Dr. Ron, I love you. May God bless you brother.

Russell

[Dr. Ron]

I think torture is wrong too....

I think we need to be more Christ like too....

I wish we didn't have to make these personal decisions too....

But I will always lean to the side of protecting our country no matter what....or what methods....

Love you man....let's win some souls ....even if we have to torture the devil to get em....