Really, who is ALL ISRAEL

[Russell Roberts]

The 'all Israel' referred to by Paul consisted (and consists) of the remnant (including Paul) and every believing Gentile who has been grafted into Israel in virtue of faith. Period.

If God judged on the basis of ethnicity, it would impugn his justice. This is the argument Paul mounts at the end of Romans 3.

[beckrl]

How would you relate or come to the conclusion that Paul is of the "remnant"?

The remnant would then be those that returned from exile until Christ.
I guess my question would be when would you give an ending to the remnant?

[Russell Roberts]

Beckrl,

Let me explain it this way. And this is hugely important in understanding Paul's point. The O.T. predicted a time of judgment that would come upon Israel. They also predicted that a remnant would be preserved (the grapes of Isaiah come to mind but it is also found elsewhere) But coming out the other side of judgment would be the renewal of the covenant.

In Romans 10, Paul exegetes Deuteronomy 30 12-14 as being fulfilled through the proclamation of the gospel. This covenant renewal has taken place right under the noses of Israel and the Gentiles have now been grafted into the covenant. Those who hear the gospel and respond in faith are members of the renewed covenant.

For those who had previously been under the curse of Torah (ethnic Jews like Paul) when they heard the gospel and believed, the covenant was renewed. Gentiles, on the other hand, who heard and believed the gospel are grafted into this 'renewed covenant' from nowhere (they had previously been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel as Paul explains elsewhere).

Deuteronomy 30, Jeremiah 31, and Ezekiel 37 specifically speak of this covenant renewal. But it must be understood that in Romans 11 when Paul speaks of 'all Israel' he does not envision a mass conversion of ethnic Jews at the end of time. He means ALL ISRAEL (the Jewish remnant plus believing Gentiles).

The remnant would include every Jew that believed the gospel from that day to this.

[ImaPK]

So are you saying that all ethnic Jews who pray to GOD daily and live rightous lives still won't make it to Heaven simple because they haven't accepted Christ? Always wondered about this.

[Russell Roberts]

Well, considering that they pray to a FALSE GOD (they reject the one true God revealed in and through the life of Jesus Christ) I would say that you have, surprisingly, given your sarcastic tone, concluded rightly.

Glad I could straighten that out for you.

[ImaPK]

Well, considering that they pray to a FALSE GOD (they reject the one true God revealed in and through the life of Jesus Christ) I would say that you have, surprisingly, given your sarcastic tone, concluded rightly.

Glad I could straighten that out for you.

No sarcasm intended. I have always wondered about this. Same for the Mormans and Muslims. They pray to GOD, at least they firmly believe that they are. And I was brought up to believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost were one yet seperate entities. Therefore by extension they are praying to one and the same. The Catholics pray to Mary and the saints along with God. Are they doomed also?

[Russell Roberts]

Sorry Imapk. Your comment sounded sarcastic. I'm sorry I misread you. All those who reject Jesus reject the one true God.

(EDIT) It pays not to respond while distracted by a facebook conversation. Maybe then I could form a coherent sentence. Those who reject Jesus have rejected the one true God. There is no hope for them.

[Russell Roberts]

I don't think that prayer to Mary disqualifies them from being saved. The status identifier for those who are 'saved' in the present is faith in Jesus Christ. Their prayer to Mary is based on a passage in what we Protestants consider to be an apocryphal book. It does not preclude faith in Jesus.

[ImaPK]

Sorry Imapk. Your comment sounded sarcastic. I'm sorry I misread you. All those who reject Jesus reject the one true God.

Come on, you've been on here long enough now to know when I'M sarcastic.

Answer me this then, from the time that Christ died and arose until 1492 what happened to all the Native Americans who prayed to the "Great Spirit" yet had never heard of Jesus Christ?

[Russell Roberts]

Ima, I can't give an educated answer about those who have never HEARD of Jesus, only for those who outright reject him.

I hold open the possibility that God has made some provision for those who have never heard of Jesus. I'm pretty sure though that those who deny him will devolve into inhumanity and cease to bear God's image.

[beckrl]

Russell Roberts

Let me see if I understand you correct , the remnant would only be those that looked for the Messiah from the return from exlie unto Christ and then extend unto the Gentiles that believe in Jesus as the Messiah.

The reason I asked about the "remnant" is because I have always thought that to be those before Christ the Messiah with came out of the exile which remained. Hind the remnant.

Although I see not problem with your view of the engrafted being included in the remnant. Just never heard it that way before.

[Russell Roberts]

Let me say it this way:

The Remnant = Any ETHNIC Jew who has placed their faith in Jesus.

The rest of Israel = Gentiles who place their faith in Christ.

Paul was part of the remnant.

Make sense?

[Russell Roberts]

In other words, I think that ethnic Jews from the time of Christ until this very day comprise the remnant.

Gentiles were and still are grafted in from outside.

[beckrl]

Thanks for taking the time to explan.

[Russell Roberts]

no problem beckrl